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I thought we might have a point or two of agreement on this, gomedome
Thanks for your supporting comment.
posted by
arGee
on November 1, 2003 at 11:41 AM
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I have to rank this posting as one of the most articulate and insightful
I have yet to read on BN. I simply could not find one point ( and well researched perspectives I must add ) to disagree with.
posted by
gomedome
on November 1, 2003 at 9:20 AM
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The Grapes of Wrath is a great book, BUT...
...it tells a story about a particular situation from which one really should not generalize. What I told you about corporations is not open to discussion: it is simple fact about what they are and how they operate. Without corporations essentially nothing in your life, Ekildog, would be possible, nothing. Remember that even most small Mom & Pop businesses are ogranized as corporations. It's just a better way to do things in business.
Don't mistake the behavior of some greedy individuals running specific corporations with the nature of corporations in general. They are neither good nor bad. They simply are. How people use them is what gives us the "good" or "evil." 
posted by
arGee
on October 11, 2003 at 7:50 PM
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Or maybe you do...
Read
The Grapes of Wrath.
posted by
Ekildog
on October 11, 2003 at 9:32 AM
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Thank you, Ekildog, for your response
I find little with which to disagree in your comment, except your final postscript: Fight Corporations. I guess I just don't understand this, since a corporation is a legal fiction that allows an individual or group of individuals to present themselves to the public as an entity, and the public can deal with that entity as if it were a person. I have a corporation that I use to collect rents and to conduct other business where I don't need to be the front person. A msjor advantage of using a corporation is that if the business takes a turn for the worse, the corporation is liable for its debts, but not necessarily the person behind the corporation. Thus, corporation assets can be liquidated to satisfy whatever portion of the creditor's claims is possible, but the individual does not end up in the poorhouse.
Perhaps you confuse large corporations with small mom & pop outfits, but they are all corporations. A well run larger corporation is also a good thing. Individuals like you and me can purchase shares of these business, and so share in the success of the corporation. It is the underlying foundation of the entire capitalistic process. Without corporations, none of what makes life better for us when compared to our great grandparents would even be possible. Just about every single aspect of your life is created by some kind of corporation.
You may need to rethink your outlook on these entities.
posted by
arGee
on October 10, 2003 at 6:39 PM
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I dare
Argee,
First off, before I say anything; that was a great post, thought-provoking and brilliant.
Secondly, if you have read any of my previous posts or even 'The Schwartzneggar Sedition', you will find that I frequently accuse myself of being a paranoid idiot kid whose views probably have yet to fully manifest. And there's no sarcasm to that. I question myself almost constantly, partly to prevent myself from falling into the pitfalls of fanaticism but also in order to do something which I take great spiritual pride in; find the Truth.
I agree, also that voting is the way to change this country, but I am dismayed to find so many Americans simply DON'T CARE.
Maybe this is all just a desperate attempt, some individual's subjective struggle to find the meaning behind his existence, his niche, and the source of his tribulations. Maybe this is all collective effort, with all points of consciousness coming to the same conclusions by way of the path that is taken.
However, I cannot back down. Even if I am wrong. This is how we learn. We make mistakes. Maybe these points of view are my mistakes. I'll find out soon enough.
I don't really claim to be one way or the other; superliberal or ultraconservative. I just love this country and as a whole, people, and I think we're here to better this planet. That's all I'm trying to do, as misdirected as it may seem.
(Also, I want to thank you because your post is precisely what American politics should be, open discussion. This country is for the free exchange of ideas, not the one-sided views of a party or speaker. Maybe that's something we've forgotten.)
In any event, "they" or "them", "we" or "us" is all an illusion any way (D'oh! Taoism seeping out...) but the classifications are just there to simplify a person's place.
Thanks for the article.
-Ekildog
( P.S. - Fight corporations. )
posted by
Ekildog
on October 10, 2003 at 4:59 PM
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I grok
posted by
arGee
on September 30, 2003 at 10:54 PM
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What's that old saying: The mind is like a parachute, it only works when it is OPEN.
And then there are my two favorites:
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.
-- Aldous Huxley
(and the comeback)
Facts do not come into existence because they are believed.
-- ME!!
posted by
GoldenMean
on September 30, 2003 at 9:20 PM
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Well put!
I am all in favor of a continuous reevaluation of one's mental constructs. I believe the difference between myself (and, of course, those who seem to think similarily to me) and "those guys" is their apparent unwillingness to perform this reevaluation from time to time--especially when new data present themselves.
posted by
arGee
on September 29, 2003 at 9:17 PM
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Mental constructs should be under construction
The professor came up with an interesting term, "mental constructs." He is describing a process that everyone must use, in an attempt to understand what is going on in the world, outside of one's direct observation. This process is not limited to the political left. The political right is full of it, as well. All religions and atheists are full of it, too. It is the simple process of belief. But beliefs can be correct as well as incorrect. The difference in people's beliefs is, 1)how much effort do they spend in research, studying the facts and listening to other people's ideas and 2) how willing they are to modify their beliefs when facts or moral principle come into conflict with them. Beliefs or "mental constructs" should always remain under construction. It is when we think we have finished constructing, and stop buying building supplies, that we get into the greatest error.
posted by
GoldenMean
on September 29, 2003 at 7:48 PM
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Why spin...and why shout it?
I never said I didn't have time to discuss with you. I did comment in one conversation with DL that I would not pursue that particular conversation any further. I will not spend time proving facts to you folks. I will give you a referance from time to time that will allow you to educate yourself, but that is as far as I am willing to go. I have learned that it is virtually impossible to convince any of you to acknowledge facts that are in conflict with your preconceptions.
I am always open, however, to spirited discourse, so long as it remains reasonable and civil.
posted by
arGee
on September 13, 2003 at 8:52 AM
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Regarding your comment in Bush Lunacy -9-13-
I thought you didn't have time to respond to people like us. More double talk, eh? Proovable Lies (your words) So prove it! If you are really out to win your argument, do so as an adult and stop beating around the Bush (pun intended) with name calling and insults. Political spin and preconceptions - your words again - interesting how you are reflecting yourself back on those you so eloquently disagree with.
posted by
Katray2
on September 13, 2003 at 8:40 AM
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Hopeless...
I have concluded that when it comes to this matter, unless a person is willing to give up completely his or her lifelong tendency to twist facts to fit preconceptions, the gap will never be bridged. Imagine how much more difficult it is when we deal with
Islam.
posted by
arGee
on September 8, 2003 at 1:28 PM
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See Clearly
It made a lot of sense, but I am still learning. I will try and do better in the future.
posted by
Sherri_G
on September 8, 2003 at 12:14 PM
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It is indeed interesting how people tend to cling to concepts
and how they do not budge when their concepts are challenged. Crabby likes to use this analogy... Imagine your concept is a coconut tree on a deserted island where you have found yourself stranded, and the conflicting view point is a rescue boat headed your way during a storm. Are you going to cling to your coconut tree or get on the boat.?
Many will cling to the (coconut tree) concept... because they do not know where the (conflicting view point) boat is going.
Of course in real life... most would be smart enough to get on the boat... using this analogy hopefully would aid in opening someone's mind....
or not.
If this did not make any sense.... Crabby has the g'dang flu!!!
posted by
Crabby
on September 8, 2003 at 12:11 PM
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