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NOPEACE
I don't believe a single word of what you say there. It is way too obviously a batch of lies.
It basically sounds like you looks everything I said and repeated it, with a few changes.
You had already made it clear before this that you full scouting experience was the job you got hired for. Otherwise, you would have mentioned you family history in your comment to me here . You make it clear by your words that when you wrote this the only Scouting experience you had made up at that point was your job.
You were not a volunteer according to your own words, but hired on.
I know you are full of it, so stop lying to me, I can see through you without even trying.
As for seeing it from all sides. I have seen it from two of those sides listed and those are the two sides which matter the most and are the true heart of scouting. The Professional side should not be the side that gets to determine the rules or what makes a Scout. The professional side is there to do what the kids need them to do. Discrimination is not what is needed at any level.
You can be morally straight and be homosexual. To think otherwise is to show the heart of what discrimination is. if anything to be honest with one's self and be openly homosexual is being much more morally straight than to pretend you are not who you know you are.
As for the God part, I already addressed that issue here.
Just like the U.S. constitution, the BAS was not founded as a religious based entity and once it becomes one it looses what it is truly about.
Your leis are too obvious and you hatred and bigotry are too overwhelming. You obviously are clueless to what Scouting is truly all about and most likely since you can not get over you need to discriminate against others, you will never understand the true essence of Scouting.
Here's a question for you. If a young man earns his Eagle and then later on comes out as being gay, should he have to give his Eagle back? My wife's cousin earned his Eagle and he is fairly obviously gay, but he has not come out yet. So if he is gay (Which we are fairly certain he is) does that mean he was not morally straight because he was gay as you and many other ignorant idiots so claim? Or was he not morally straight because due to ignorant idiots such as yourself, he had to hide who he was and to some degree lie to himself and everyone else about who he was?
posted by
kooka_lives
on June 18, 2006 at 11:45 AM
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Kooka
That's just the thing, you don't know my scouting background. I was a cub scout, I earned my arrow of light award, I made my way all the way to life scout and i kick myself often for not going the extra mile to earn my eagle. My brother earned his eagle and my father and grandfather were also scouts. You may not care or give a rats ass as you say about what the professional staff has to say but scouters didnt develop the rules of the scouting program it was the professional scouters who did. William Boynce started the program here in America, he was not a scout but a professional scouter. By refusing to execept the role the professional staff plays in organizing and running the program, it shows your lack of understanding of what makes the movement work. If the professional staff were to walk away, eventually there will BE no more Boy Scouts. The Boy Scouts of America is a volunteer lead organization and those volunteers recieve their guidance from professionals such as I was.
How can you claim to honor the scout oath but don't follow the values of the scout oath. Duty to God is part of that oath, how can you honestly say you fulfilled that duty when you believe there is no God? Morally Straight. How can a scout honestly say they fulfilled that duty when they profess to be homosexual. The BSA accepts people of all religions but make no mistake about it, the foundations of the organization were built on christian values just like the United States Constitution.
So, until you have seen the program from all sides (being a scout, a professional and a volunteer), it is YOU who can not debate the Boy Scout program with me.
posted by
NOPEACE
on June 18, 2006 at 10:22 AM
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NOPEACE
I don't give a rat's ass about what the 'professional staff' has to say. They are not at all what scouting is about. it is about the boys and teaching those boys good values. Sorry, but discrimination is not a value I wish to teach my boys and it was something I was not taught in Scouts. Btu now, thanks to narrow minded jerks such as yourself, that is all Boy Scouts is becoming. You don't get it and can never understand it.
Do not try to debate Scouting with me. I am a third generation Scout. I have told you my Grandfather was an Eagle and my step-father and his brothers were all in Scouts. As far as I am concerned even if your claim is true and you worked for them for a time, you do not have any right at all to say what Scouting is about unless you have lived it from the stand point of having been a Scout..
As for eh God thing, I do have a post planned to explain to you how reality works and how I can take such a pledge and have in mean much more to me than you can possible imagine and stiller refer to God in it without believing in any traditional idea of God. You are just clueless and are the prime example of why we have so many problems in this country right now.
Oh,and Buddhists do not believe in a 'higher power'. you obviously know nothing about the religion, so don't try to make any stupid claims about a belief system you know nothing about.
posted by
kooka_lives
on June 16, 2006 at 12:16 PM
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Kooka
You claim to have meant the oath and the law when you recited them but how can you do your duty to God when you do not believe in him? You can pick and choose which parts of the oath and the law to follow. Also, you continually mention that because you are an Eagle Scout and recited the oath and law countless times you are more knowledgeable about scouting than I. I'm not trying to doubt your knowledge of the program however, you should be made aware that it is the professional staff that guides the program.
It is the professional staff that determines the amount of required merit badges and which merit badges are required to advance in rank an or attain the rank of Eagle. I venture to say that although you may know some of the fundamentals of the scouting program, you fail to recall the foundation of which it was built here in America.
The Boy Scouts of America was started here in the U.S. by William D. Boyce who was an executive with the YMCA. The YMCA (Young Men's Christian Association) no doubtly incorporated it's own values within the program at is founding here in America.
Buddist may not believe in God in the since that I believe in God however, Buddist do believe in a higher Supreme Being which is all the BSA requires. The membership requirements only mean having a belief in some supreme being higher than a persons own self.
I'm sure you are very knowledgable on how to acommplish the requirements for the merit badges but as far as the behind the scenes operations that sustains the organization, you have no clue.
posted by
NOPEACE
on June 16, 2006 at 9:13 AM
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NOPEACE
Since I have said that oath and the law many, many times and I meant my pledge to them, I know for a fact I have a much better understanding of just what they mean that you could ever hope to have. I do not believe in God, yet I can tell you for a fact that the oath and law meant a lot to me and by excluding anyone due to religious ideas or sexual orientation, you are violating both of those.
The Scout Oath
On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight. |
"To help other people at all times" is in the oath.
How is it helping others to exclude them because of who they are?
Also, if you decide to take this literally, then Buddhist should not be allowed to become scouts, since they do not believe in God. Yet I have not heard anything about the BSA saying Buddhist can't join up.
The Scout Law
A Scout is:
Trustworthy
Loyal
Helpful
Friendly
Courteous
Kind | | Obedient
Cheerful
Thrifty
Brave
Clean
Reverent |
How is it helpful, friendly, courteous or kind to exclude people because of who they are?
If you tell them to just go with the flow, than you are asking them to lie and that goes against both, since that would not be morally straight (Which has nothing to do with sexuality by the way) nor would that be trustworthy. In truth admitting you do not believe in God or that you are gay is what Boy Scouts should be all about, being true to who you are and not feeling as if you should hide you true self from others.
Also, Reverence does not have to be towards God. To say otherwise is just ignorance. And that is part of my problem with the BSA right now, they are being ignorant and promoting the wrong kind of values by finding reasons to exclude people, instead of living up to their true purpose and doing all they can to include as many as possible, no matter than differences.
Not that I believe a word you say when you talk about having been active with the BSA. I seriously doubt you have ever taken such an oath that you really pledge yourself to and understand at the level in which the Scout Oath meant to me, until people like decided to walk all over it and turn it into something ugly and unjustifiably discriminating.
posted by
kooka_lives
on June 15, 2006 at 7:08 PM
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How Can you misinterpret the values of the Boy Scouts?
As a former District Executive with the Boy Scouts I feel I also have a right to discuss the program of scouting. There have been several times during my tenure with the Boy Scouts where I had to revoke a youths membership because they professed being an atheist or homosexual.
How can you misunderstand the values of the Scouting Program its stated clearly in the Oath and the Law.
"On my honor, I'll do my best to do my duty to God and my country..."
The 12th point in the scout law is a scout is reverent. Reverent towards God. I never took pleasure in revoke a youths membership or a organizations charter but if you are not going to live up to the values and the membership standards of the organization, why join?
We had a saying among the professional staff which I'm sure is still used today. "America is returning to the morals and values that the Boy Scouts never left."
posted by
NOPEACE
on June 15, 2006 at 6:31 PM
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Morals are such strange things...
posted by
DarrkeThoughts
on June 14, 2006 at 7:14 PM
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Sunnybeach
Thanks for the info.
My wife's grandmother would go crazy if we got the bays active in such a group. She doesn't understand why we have a problem with the Boy Scouts right now. She sees nothing wrong with what they are doing. Of course I have yet to be open about being an atheist with her. it was bad enough when we started talking politics and I was showing just how liberal I am compared to her diehard conservative views. That was a very interesting day.
posted by
kooka_lives
on June 14, 2006 at 3:33 PM
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good job son
posted by
Xeno-x
on June 14, 2006 at 2:54 PM
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I don't know if you've ever heard of Spiral Scouts?
If you are really interested in getting your boys into scouting, this may be an option.
They don't discriminate on a lot of the things that Boy Scouts do.
It allows both male and female, and doesn't discriminate against religion (or lack of it), or homosexuals.
My kids aren't in scouts as of yet, so I can't give you a personal opinion, but I belong to a few email groups where the children attend Spiral Scouts, and they seem to like it.
I found this link, you might want to check it out. If you're interested, you might have to do a search for a local group.
Or maybe even start your own Spiral Scouts if none are available, it sounds like you have the experience to handle it.
http://paganwiccan.about.com/library/weekly/aa111402spiralscouts.htm?nl=1
posted by
Afzal_Sunny7
on June 14, 2006 at 12:30 PM
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