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Gomedome-I believe that there is a heaven and that there is a hell.
However, I will not pretend for a minute that who goes to heaven and who goes to hell is any of my business. All that I try to get people to do is examine ALL of the evidence. Use objectivity and subjectivity (as per my 'Road Construction vs Science of Origins' post of the other day).
posted by
redwood
on June 12, 2006 at 8:37 AM
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redwood -- but back to the original question
What happens ot those who have never heard of Jesus Christ, in regards to salvation. What I get from your comments is that they are just plain out of luck. And this based on the idea that you think God is above our puny human analysis.
posted by
gomedome
on June 12, 2006 at 8:20 AM
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gomedome -have you read my current post about miracles?
Yes, God could demonstate himself in ways that are mighty and miraculous. Instead, He has decided to reveal Himself through that which is considered foolish and weak by the human race . That is what St. Paul wrote in First Corinthians chapters 1 and 2, anyway. Maybe this also explains why the church has always been so "messed up".
posted by
redwood
on June 12, 2006 at 7:34 AM
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redwood - you did everything except attempt to answer the question
But you did say a lot without realizing it. You imply that the Spanish coming to the new world instead of the native Americans coming to Europe was pre-ordained but in this the very weakness of calling the bible the word of God is demonstrated. You ramble on a bit about how God cannot be subjected to our analysis but somehow needs us to spread his message? Why could he not do this himself and in a much more efficient and peaceful manner?
There should be no surprise in finding any indigenous culture with a religion bearing simularities to another religion from the other side of the globe. All members of our species have constructed their religions in much the same manner from observation and limited perspective. Of the countless varieties that mankind has constructed, there are bound to be a few that are very simular to each other.
posted by
gomedome
on June 12, 2006 at 7:24 AM
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gomedome - the terms of the original covenant were established long before
the Spaniards arrived in North America. The Mayans and the Aztecs were just members of the human race. As a believer, I try to divorce myself from the notion that God is obligated to conform to my ideas of fairness, logic, science, or anything else. If that makes me ignorant and superstitious in the minds of some people, so be it. One thing that God cannot quit being is God. If He is Holy, then he can not accept something just because we call it "good". If He is powerful enough and smart enough to create the Universe, then he does not have to cram Himself into one of our test labs for a scientific examination so that we can approve or disapprove of Him. If He is "Just", he does not have to comply with our definition of "fair. On and on it goes. No, I am not saying that I totally like it. But this is how I perceive reality just the same. Something that is interesting about the Aztecs that Cortez came to know is that they were practicing religious rituals very similar to that of the Ancient Canaanites of Joshua's time. Where did that come from?
Could this also provide a clue as to why Europeans came to the new world as opposed to the other way around? In similar fashion to why Joshua was told to conquer the Canaanites? No, Cortez did not have pure motives. Something to think about, though.
posted by
redwood
on June 12, 2006 at 7:10 AM
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redwood - how did the Mayans for example exercise free will?
It's safe to say that the majority of the Mayan civilization had risen and declined in populace long before the Conquistadors came upon them in the 1,500's. Not a one of these people had ever heard of Jesus Christ nor even the idea of a monotheist God prior to the Spanish arriving. How does free will enter into this scenario?
posted by
gomedome
on June 12, 2006 at 6:48 AM
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Gomedome - you are a businessman. You know that in order for any contract
(or covenant) to work, there must be compliance by two parties, the one who administers the contract, and the one who executes the contract. If the terms of a contract are violated, it is incumbent on the violating party to reap the consequences. It is not the fault of the party who honored the terms of the contract that the other party did not. The Bible tells us that the human race decided to embrace a mentallity and an economy which is different than that which was originally provided by the Creator. They did this by their own free will. You know where I am going with this.....
posted by
redwood
on June 12, 2006 at 6:34 AM
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hmmmm
i prefer everyone else's alternative i think.
this scenario would surely be a hell.
we just wait packed like sardines until we are called by the Big Judge?
then like the Michaelangelo? DaVinci? -- he points up or down and there we go?
the wait itself would be sheer hell -- anticipaton, wondering.
actually what i prefer is how i am right now.
i'm good as is.
posted by
Xeno-x
on June 12, 2006 at 5:30 AM
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I know you weren't asking me....
but I'll give you my views anyway 
Disclaimer: These are my personal beliefs. Don't hate me cause I'm a genius. jk. 
I believe we are all connected. All part of the "big whole". So saying that there may be people that have not heard of Jesus is impossible, in true form.
I'm putting on my helmet and other protective wear for this, cause I know how some will take this.
None of us are seperate, we are all one. We are the whole of "God". My favorite saying..and I'm not sure exactly who said it... "We are not humans trying to be spiritual, we are spiritual beings trying to be human."
Everyone we experience as humans is three dimensional and an illusion. Like we all believe that we are seperate, but there is actually no seperation. We also view time as linear, which makes us not understand how it is possible to be seperate but the same.
Don't ask me to explain how true time (or lack of it) works, as I have yet to figure that out.
So then your question is what happens to them humans during the illusion of death?
They transform and return to source until they are ready for their next experience.
posted by
Afzal_Sunny7
on June 11, 2006 at 11:15 PM
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