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go ahead
that's what reasonable discourse is about.
building on the previous ideas
posted by
Xeno-x
on May 20, 2006 at 7:21 AM
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DarrkeThoughts - this is it exactly
"I think the athiest/agnostic is less provocative because they are not passionately tied to any one ideal. That also allows them to look more critically at many ideas and compare them dispassionately."
When you get to the point of seeing religion dispassionately, you also realize the absurd folly that our species has trapped itself in. Countless thousands of versions of God on this planet with each version creating a division amongst people.
posted by
gomedome
on May 19, 2006 at 6:04 PM
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Xeno-x - well said and such a common sense approach should be well
received by everyone. Sadly however, it is not.
I may have to pick up your comment as fuel for my next post.
posted by
gomedome
on May 19, 2006 at 5:59 PM
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It seems to me that zealously following any idea (religious or political) puts you in the same place when it comes to offending people. So communism is just like another religion - not like atheist/agnostic beliefs. I think the athiest/agnostic is less provocative because they are not passionately tied to any one ideal. That also allows them to look more critically at many ideas and compare them dispassionately.
posted by
DarrkeThoughts
on May 19, 2006 at 5:44 PM
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sin is a reproach to any people
that's from Proverbs.
faults are found throughout the spectrum of human experience.
doesn't matter whether religious or not
doesn't matter the religion.
bottom line -- it's the individual who catches the vision
and that individual doesn't necessarily have to be Christian.
whether Christian or whatever, "strait is the gate and narrow the path . . . "
few discover.
i hope i can.
posted by
Xeno-x
on May 19, 2006 at 4:09 PM
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ariel70 - no need for a crusade, most of us of like mind already conduct
ourselves in this manner, or at least try to.
posted by
gomedome
on May 19, 2006 at 12:15 PM
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Gomedome
Oh yes! yes, Well put!
Maybe you and I, and a few other like-minded people in here ought to start a new Crusade. Let's all lshut our gobs for a few minutes, listen to what the other guys has to say, think about it, then say what we think.
No more knee-jerk reactions ; no more condemning without consideration . a strict requirement to actually READ what the guy/guyess said ( actually, that should've been first, shouldn't it? LOL ) and reasoned reactions only. Not prepacked opinions and comments.'onist, some of 'em could been cut an' pasted!.
And no sex, please, we're British.
I've got to go and entertaine Lady Ariela with a DVD. CU later maybe
posted by
ariel70
on May 19, 2006 at 12:02 PM
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ariel70 - exactly, you articulate my thinking better than I can myself
The single biggest reason that I continually write this blog is to attempt to whap a few people in the head with a figurative wooden mallet. Nothing else seems to get their attention. The world is further spiralling into an abyss of religious division with one major religion declaring war on another and what do the majority of people propose as a solution? . . . more religion (yeah, that'll work). Even in spite of the fact that the inherent expansionist doctrines as found in all religions are the root of most of these problems! A fundamental grassroots shift towards respect and tolerance for the beliefs or non beliefs of others is our only hope as a species. It is the most pragmatic of all solutions in that it has a slim chance of succeeding but a chance nonetheless. In the meantime however, this message will never sink in if it is not delivered from a postion of solid contention, backed by facts and irrefutable logic. Still, there are some that will never get it, bopping them on the head with a figurative wooden mallet only produces that sickening and resounding thud . . .of wood on wood.
posted by
gomedome
on May 19, 2006 at 11:35 AM
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Gomedome
Thank you for that.
I feel very strongly that in discussion -- epecially of politics or religion -- there must be rationality, reason and balance, and however strongly one feels one should never resort to personal attacks.
If one can't demolish an argument with controverting facts, then one is highly unlikely to succeed with personal abuse.
I am constantly amazed ( and I must admit, often appalled and depressed )by some of the sheer rancour that I see expressed in here. And I do not refer to anything that has passed between others and me today.
It's as if what's -- or rather who's -- being discussed is not the rational and reasoned opinions of human beings but the incomprehensible, and inherently evil ourpouring of an alien species.
My often expressed views ( with which you are familiar ) are not some weak, flaccid " Let's all be nice to each other" but a genuine belief that that if we don't all learn to live with each other, and respect the views and religions/atheism of others then the future is bleak indeed. Oh, and of course, be prepared to stand up, and if necessary fight, for our values and freedoms.
I've witnessed more than enough hatred and killing in my lifetime to know in my bones that we are headed on a downward slope into barbarism. In our " educated" " intellectual" ways, we are often as ignorant and as bigoted as mediaeval peasants in there-three hut village in the endless forests.
posted by
ariel70
on May 19, 2006 at 10:54 AM
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ariel70 - I thoroughly enjoyed reading your dialogue in these comments
Not only did you utilize reason and maintained a level of civility, you also lent credence to my contention that the non believers on this site are good cyber citizens.
posted by
gomedome
on May 19, 2006 at 10:29 AM
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redwood - how easily you crawfish when challenged
I'm sticking to the first line of this posting in suggesting who this post was aimed at but you have come out and said that you feel it is referencing your recent post. In your post you make no reference whatsoever to China. Your entire post clearly references American society by inference and by naming some of your country's political institutions.
The most important point made here however is that you state that your examples, or the people that you are saying make these claims of superior morality are not necessarily members of Blogit. In fairness you do not state that they are anywhere in your post but you will not convince anyone other than a few of your Christian friends, that this sentiment of superiority amongst non believers exists in the real world. Other than possibly as an exception. In my 50+ years I have never met the ficticious non believer who is a detriment to society, not a one. How is that? I have also never met one that has proclaimed moral superiority nor has wanted to extend their views of morality onto others based upon their beliefs. Whether you want to admit it or not. The proclamation of moral superiority and the desire to extend one's own views on morality onto others, is entirely the preserve of organized religion or those who think they have some invisible being on their side.
posted by
gomedome
on May 19, 2006 at 10:02 AM
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ariel 70
There is something that makes me different than most who visit this site. I am not "better" or "worse" than the rest of 'em. Or "smarter" or "dumber". I believe in God and I do not think that He plays by our rules. Yes, it is good to study science, math, history,and government. But I do not think that He has to abide by our idea of what is "fair" or "logical" or "scientific". I think that God is to be respected for who he is as opposed to what we would like Him to be. Most of the people who visit this site seem to think that God should be ridiculed. If they ridicule God, then they are ridiculing the people who try to be His servants. Or is that the wrong way to look at it? And I think that we are talking about an issue with high stakes. I know that I am rambling but I can't help it. Well, gotta go to work, or I'd write more.
posted by
redwood
on May 19, 2006 at 9:22 AM
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Redwood
Thank you for your apology ; most gracious of you. You misunderstand me, amigo, what I wrote was something to the effect that in my experience ( only) atheists tend to be more tolerant that many Christians.
This is of course a strictly personal view, and of course one realises that there are millions of rabidly intolerant atheists in the world ; of whom I have met many.
My own view is that we all, Christains, followers of other religion, agnostics, and atheists are on a voyage to none may know where, and we all have a duty to assist as best we may all our fellow travellers. In my side bar I wrote that if we do not all learn to love each other we are doomed. Without love, compassion, respect and tolerance for all weshall lead lives that become increasingly nasty brutish and short.
posted by
ariel70
on May 19, 2006 at 8:35 AM
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aeriel 70
Being discourteous always shows a lack of class, and I apologize for that. However, I can not see how anyone can say that atheists are more tolerant than others when there are a over a billion people in China (of many faiths) who are under sever religious restriction. And the restrictions are being imposed by atheists.
posted by
redwood
on May 19, 2006 at 8:25 AM
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Just stopped to say "hi." Getting out before I get hit by debris...
posted by
Renigade
on May 19, 2006 at 8:03 AM
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Redwood
You are discourteous to me in accusing me of deliberately misunderstanding your comments. I found them confusing, and much of their content irrelevant, but I tried to frame my comments in a respectful manner.
Pray do me the same courtesy.
posted by
ariel70
on May 19, 2006 at 8:00 AM
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Xeno-x
I took the bait. I wrote the post that Gomedome is referring to in his "numbnut" article. The reason why I wrote it has to do with my observations from everyday life. He seems to think that I am directing it specifically at people in Blogit. That was not my intention. However, if the shoe fits........... Oh and sorry if I interrupted your converstion with Aeriel 70. I guess that I don't like it when I try to address something as clearly as possible and get intentionally misunderstood.
posted by
redwood
on May 19, 2006 at 7:37 AM
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sorry wqasnt a question
it was a challenge that gomey posted here.
so far -- seems no takers
they don't answer for their religion much
posted by
Xeno-x
on May 19, 2006 at 6:55 AM
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Of course you don't
posted by
redwood
on May 19, 2006 at 6:49 AM
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Redwood
Pray, to whom was that comment addressed? I see no sick minds in here.
posted by
ariel70
on May 19, 2006 at 6:45 AM
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xenox
I seem to have missed your question ( probably becos I've ben in and out ) what was it?
I was wroong to state that Nazi Germany was an atheist state, for the Christian churches wielded enormous power and influence ( and were inceidentally at the forefront of german anti-Semitisim ) If there was such a thing as the " state religion" to which Redwood referred, it was the SS's paganism, rotted in ancient Germanic and Scandinavian superstitions
posted by
ariel70
on May 19, 2006 at 6:44 AM
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You can't argue with sick minds
posted by
redwood
on May 19, 2006 at 6:43 AM
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hmmm
you ask a question and you get no answer to your question
just the suposition that Naxi Germany was atheist. hmmmmm -- we do remember where they got their anti-semitism, don't we? not from an atheistic idea.
actually, the principles of communism are found in what we call "primitive" peoples -- bushmen, Amazon tribes, etc. -- asll work for the community and share equally. Each individual spends less time per day acquiring all that the community needs than those of us in this capitalistic society.
in essence, capitalism is socialistic because "common people" can (in theory) own stock in a company, thus share in the weal or woe thereof.
but that aside -- where is the answer to your question.
they couldn't do it could they?
posted by
Xeno-x
on May 19, 2006 at 6:38 AM
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Redwood
Thank you for your long comment, which I have to say that I find confuses many irrelevant issues with the proposition in my first comment ; which was that generally I have found atheists to be more tolerant than many, many Christians.
If our swapping of comments we seem to have departed far from this simple basic observation ; and strayed into territoyr of little or no relevance. For example, the political likes/dislikes of those no doubt excellent East European and Russian people that you mention do not in any way modify the systems of which they speak.
Their comments upon then may well be a measure of how humane/inhumane they are, but in no way define them. A communist, or a nominally Christian state is what it is, despite what one may think of it.
On your final point I would disagree vehemently ; in commons with most people, I'm sure, I do not believe that some mythical Creator endowed us with rights, but that they have been fought for, and won, over millenia.
To believe otherwise is to accept that God, and His various forms of religious beliefs, are there to make our lives easy or more comfortable. Christ's message is surely not make this life as comfortable as possible, but look more to the next life in His embrace.
This has been very interesting. Thank you, and enjoy your day.
posted by
ariel70
on May 19, 2006 at 6:35 AM
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Redwood
Great Comment Redwood
posted by
NOPEACE
on May 19, 2006 at 6:22 AM
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aeriel 70
I was in Vietnam 35 years ago and I know that there were (and are) a lot of people willing to fight and die for Communism. The North Vietnamese suffered at least 30 time as many casualties as we did in that war. Did we win? And, oh yes, Communism took a nose dive in Russia. The Chinese government blames the fall of Communism in Russia on Christians. They are determined that it is not going to happen in their country. I know a man who has done Christian missions work in Vietnam and China in the past several years. Very dangerous work. He wanted to go back to Vietnam recently, but was told that to do that now would be suicide. As far as Russia goes, there are many Slavic people in our apartment complex (Ukraine, Byelorus, Latvia, Moldova, and some Russians). They do not trust Putin. Nor do they have a lot of faith in the notion that Communism is totally dead in that part of the world. Most of the Slavic people that I know would never have come here if they felt that way. And they are appalled at many of the things which are going on in this country. These are smart people. They hate communism. But they have even less respect for the liberal establishment in our state (this is a blue one) than they do for communists. And some of these people have spent time in prison for being Christians! God means everything to them. Also, I consider Atheism to be a religion. It is the official religion of North Korea, China, and a few others. I fail to see the difference (from a strictly humanistic perspective) as compared to numerous other civilizations throughout history with a "state religion". No abberation whatsoever. In the U.S.Declaration of Independence, there is an assumption that our liberties come not from a ruler, not from a legislature, but from a Creator. If our liberties are endowed by our Creator, how can it be that we are exempt from any responsibility to that creator? But, what do I know? Have a good one.
posted by
redwood
on May 19, 2006 at 6:06 AM
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Redwood
I'm not quite clear as to the thrust of your comment, but you surely cannot imagine that I, or anyone else who isn't totally blinkered, thinks that China is a free thinking society.
Communism is clearly an historical abberation in that it departs radically from any polity that has gone before, and is so fatally flawed as to be doomed to extinction.
posted by
ariel70
on May 19, 2006 at 5:12 AM
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ariel70
Communism is an abberation? What do you think China is? Just be cause they don't mind making a few international bucks means that they have turned into a free thinking, democratic society, right?
posted by
redwood
on May 19, 2006 at 5:08 AM
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Gomedome
Perhaps a little more vehemently put than I would have done -- but then I don't usually stick my head above the parapet, like you do LOL -- but I have to agree with you.
In my lifetime, which is a bit longer than that of most in here ( Burly excepted ) I've found precisely what you cite in your post ; that atheists do tend to be more tolerant and respectful to the views and beliefs of others.
Yep, I know that the Nazi, Communist, and other atheist regimes have been virulently repressive of religion, but one can take those as historical aberrations.
posted by
ariel70
on May 19, 2006 at 4:15 AM
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Do You Suppose?
Is it within the realm of possibility that I could get my ideas and observations from another source besides Blogit?
Like from real life, maybe?
posted by
redwood
on May 19, 2006 at 2:40 AM
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I cannot agree more.
posted by
una01
on May 19, 2006 at 1:28 AM
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