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franciscan - I find this type of reasoning tiring
If it can be called "reasoning" at all.
Every point you attempt to make is merely the utilization of observation to support a foregone conclusion. That being your belief that a conscious supreme being is responsible for all that exists. I can make an equally valid argument that no such being exists through observation as well. I can even garner consensus amongst those who find the traditional definition of God as inadequate but I could not care less if one other person on this planet believes as I do.
I've never wondered why thousands of people were put to death in the name of Jesus, those types of things happened within the socio-political struggles of the times. Where attempting to illustrate this point fails as a contention is in the reality that a proportionate number of people of other religions have died throughout history in defence of their own versions of God as well. It is part of human composition to want to believe in a supreme being. I say more power to you if you are able to reconcile all that does not work within your belief system with reality, you have one on me in that regard. If it does not work or does not stand up to logic, I simply cannot buy into it. In this you are refusing to give me credit for having an analytical mind, a different mind type than what you obviously possess. Do not infer a negative implication in this last statement, as there is none.
As for the happy nun driving a wreck and all other abstract contentions that you present as proof of the power of this omnipotent conscious entity that you believe exists, all I can say is spare me this drivel. I have always conceeded that there are positives found within a belief of a supreme being but only for some people. It is merely the power of positive thinking with deferred responsibility and packaged a bit differently. This may come as a bit of a surprise to you, but I have heard each and every one of the points you attempt to make numerous times. There is nothing new here.
posted by
gomedome
on April 30, 2006 at 7:35 PM
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Gomedome, sorry for making assumptions about what you read or don't read. I've just never in my life come across someone who writes [rants?] with such consistency about something that he hasn't personally experienced. When a believer, a theist, claims to know God personally they're saying they have faith. But it isn't the kind of faith one has in a good car. When we say faith we mean secret knowledge. Faith isn't something one person can explain to another person. If I could simply tell someone "this is what you do to know God" then I think we would, in a sense, "have His number". And for now God isn't appearing in the sky. That would be a kind of force situation. We'd then try to please God out of fear. God wants humble hearts ready to be open to His call, and, among other thing, His love.
The heading for this comment page ..."Believers are in for a big dissapointment when they die". That's a blanket statement. Sounds like you're stating a fact. Fact is, though, no one can prove a negative. Plato believed the soul is immortal. Ever wonder how a thought which, wouldn't you say, is a non-physical thing , can cause your arm to move? Can the brain, a physical thing, produce a thought, a spiritual or mental thing? Can the brain move the arm? It takes something spiritual, a soul, to move something physical. If you want this expained a lot better I refer you to Frank Sheed. His book Theology for Beginners is one of the very best for people who want solid answers.
Ever wonder why in the first three hundred years of Christianity millions of people died for Jesus? Who would die for a myth? Obviously these people had an internal conviction. Obviously a deep one.
Ever wonder why the old nun in the beat up car has a face that glows [yes, I've seen it] and countless yuppies look dissatisfied? The nun's got something going on in her spirit.
What about cause and effect? How can something come from nothing? Where did everything come from? One might ask, "Where did God come from?" The consensus opinion of theologians [as far as I know] is that He didn't come from anywhere. He always existed. Beyond our knowledge. But that's fun, isn't it? A total mystery.
I'm leaving but I want you to have some of the words from one of my favorite Catholic writers. , Leo Trese. From The Faith Explained; "The principal proof for the existence of God lies in the fact that nothing happens unless something causes it to happen. Cookies don't disappear from the cookie jar unless someone's fingers snitched them. An oak tree doesn't grow up out of the ground unless an acorn eas dropped there. The philosophers express it by saying, "Every effect must have a cause".
"And God is all-merciful. As often as we repent, so often will God forgive. There is a limit to your patience and mine, but no limit to the infinite mercy of God. Yet he also is infinitely just. God is not a doting grandmother, closing his eyes to our sins. He wants us in heaven, but his mercy cannot defeat his justice if we refuse him the love which is the purpose of our being."
posted by
franciscan
on April 30, 2006 at 5:50 PM
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franciscan - when are you going to stop making assumptions as to what
I have read and not read?
posted by
gomedome
on April 28, 2006 at 6:25 PM
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Gomedome, I see your point and it's well taken.
There are certainly different angles to be looked at, different ways to interpret it.
Franciscan, were you referring to me or to Gomedome? I have read some of St Augustine. He's got a fascinating history! I have not read Peter Kreeft, although I have heard of him.
posted by
JanesOpinion
on April 28, 2006 at 6:03 PM
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When are you going to read Saint Augustine or Saint Thomas Aquinas or Peter Kreeft?
posted by
franciscan
on April 28, 2006 at 3:05 PM
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JanesOpinion - thank you for that effort
As you can imagine, I do not see any of those things written in that particular psalm and I can tell you exactly why. As I read your interpretation, there are elements that help you arrrive at it's meaning that are not contained within it. A belief in God is an obvious one but the prior definition of God is integral as well. Regardless, I have to agree that humans sure do spend a great deal of their time keeping up appearances.
posted by
gomedome
on April 27, 2006 at 7:43 PM
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Xenox -- was your esoteric comment intended for something I said?
Whatever.
posted by
JanesOpinion
on April 27, 2006 at 6:13 PM
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as long as you don't
shoot him
now if you can refrain from such actions, then that's love.
posted by
Xeno-x
on April 27, 2006 at 10:48 AM
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Gome that's a valid question.
What this Psalm means to me is that God desires honesty. It is so ingrained within all humans to want to look good. We're worried about what others think of us. So even though we've perhaps committed heinous acts (ex: Catholic priests), nonetheless on the outside we look good and all is supposedly well. As well, when we do wrong, we humans are so good at covering up our sorry deeds, and justifying our miserable actions, and suppressing our consience. And then we repeat those same sorry acts, justifying all the while, and gradually we lose that conscience, the ability to determine right from wrong. And all the while we still look so good on the outside. People are amazed at how "together" a person may be yet not have a clue as to what really is happening on the inside.
But all the while God is standing by, waiting for honesty, waiting for a repentent heart, willing to forgive when we are transparent with God regarding the wrongs committed. Imagine if those priests, after committing such heinous deeds against children, had been totally broken and contrite before God, had cried out for a clean heart (to use a Biblical term) and then confessed to the community and accepted with humility and repentence whatever punishment was chosen. Imagine how that might have helped bring to a close that much quicker this whole terrible chapter within the Catholic Church.
"Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me. Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me. Restore to me the joy of your salvation and grant me a willing spirit to sustain me. Then I will teach transgressors your ways, and sinners will turn back to you" (Psalm 51:10-13).
posted by
JanesOpinion
on April 27, 2006 at 7:59 AM
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JanesOpinion - I want you to tell me honestly (because I know you will)
Do you feel the Psalm that you have left as a comment illustrates a healthy message or sentiment? I'm just curious on your interpretation of something like this. What does this Psalm mean to you?
posted by
gomedome
on April 26, 2006 at 9:08 PM
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Xeno-x - yeah - altogether now
Then the loftiness of the goal is found in extending that love beyond a human's ability to do so. I couldn't possibly love my neighbour as myself. He's a big fat dummy that guzzles beer by the case and drives a yellow Hummer when he's sober. The rest of the time he drinks beer and washes his vehicle. His limited mental faculty does not allow him to extend his love beyond a gaudy piece of metal and plastic. I cannot manage to bring myself above contempt for someone such as this. Love is out of the question.
posted by
gomedome
on April 26, 2006 at 9:00 PM
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I think what God is looking for is honesty.
"You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart" (Psalm 51:16-17).
posted by
JanesOpinion
on April 26, 2006 at 7:27 PM
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dont need god to worship god
all we need is love
posted by
Xeno-x
on April 26, 2006 at 1:44 PM
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