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Not to Judge
Yes, Kooka, I know there are lots of Christians out there who would condemn you and everyone else for not believing exactly as they do. I, personally, believe it is wrong to judge others, no matter who or what you are. (Naturally this is very hard to keep from doing sometimes, as we are all humans.)
Have you read my personal Blog under Journals? If you have, you will see my life is so mixed up at times, that I could not afford the luxury of judging others, even if I believed I should. Life is just too precious to waste judging others.
I am a Christian and have been all of my life. But, I have some very different views than a lot of other Christians that I know. For one thing, I find it hard to believe that God will not accept Jews because they have not accepted Jesus as his Son. After all, the Bible says Jews are the chosen people. But, according to the Bible, the only way to Heaven is through Jesus. So, on this, I am mystified. There are just too many open questions for anyone to make too many factual statements. Naturally there are certain things we all know is wrong, murder, etc....
I personally believe Christianity is very personal relationship between each individual and God. Just as a parent, my relationship with each of my sons is different because my sons are different. One son is definitely at C to B student. The other could get straight A's if he applied himself. Therefore, when they each get a C or below I handle it differently. I believe the same will be our relationship with God.
Am I as clear as mud yet?
posted by
CharliC
on March 17, 2006 at 10:23 AM
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CharliC - It probably was not me that wrote anything about the intelligence
of believers in a general sense, as I tend to stay away from those types of remarks.
Someday you will appreciate how incredibly condescending it is to tell others that you feel sorry for them based on what you believe. That is after all what you are basing it on, certainly not any knowledge or insight of the objects of your misguided compassion. Sorry but I had to say that, I know that your intentions were not to condescend, I am also confident that you are generally a decent person but personally I can handle being an object of pity (by anyone for any reason) for about 3 seconds. Back to the subject of the intelligence of believers; There are very few fair generalizations that one can make in this regard but there are a few. Non belief is an individualistic mindset, atheists do not cloister in groups for reasons pertaining to their non belief as believers do pertaining to their faith. It is also safe to say that a certain type of intellect develops non belief through the life maturation process. Neither of these generalizations actually denote higher intelligence amongst non believers though some have construed as much.
Two more fair generalizations are that atheists have an unusually low representation within the prison populations of all western societies. Non belief also has a disproportionate representation amongst the higher strata of the intellect of our species. These two aspects are not unrelated. Ultimately it may be futile to compare a small segment of the populace with a particular type of intellect to a very broadly based segment of the populace. The plain and simple truth is that the broader based segment, which encompasses all types of intellect . . .
. . . is going to have a lot more dummies in it.
posted by
gomedome
on March 17, 2006 at 8:59 AM
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CharliC
Thank you for enjoying my blog.
It is nice to find a believer who is willing to look at the possibilities presented and debate them in a civil manner. There are a few like you here on Blogit, but you are in the minority. Most want to condemn and convert. They see everything I write here as an attack on their faith, refusing to read anything and making assumptions fully based on me being an atheist.
posted by
kooka_lives
on March 17, 2006 at 8:26 AM
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Gomedome
I realize the numbers are declining, just as the Bible says it will. lol "Straight is the gate, and narrow is the way. FEW there will be to find it." Not that I am quoting this exact, as I mentioned my Bible knowledge is something I need to work on. Thanks for deciding to treat me kindly. I have a hard time too, when I write, as I want to feel pity for you and all non believers. But, I know it is not wanted nor needed. So, sometimes, I have to go back and erase before I send! That is the Christian in me coming out.
I did want to raise a point I am not sure who wrote, (as I read so much last night, I get the writers confused) about the intelligence of people who believe. I know many highly educated, well respected professionals who are Christians. I, myself, am an educated professional raising children (and doing a fine job of it, if I must say so myself). Having been tested by a professional, I know my IQ is well in the above average range. (Just wish I had done more with it! lol)
I would suggest we don't throw those stones at any one group of people. All races, religions, etc... have their fair share of good and bad, educated and uneducated, intelligent and those who are not.
God did not want man to know everything therefore there are many mysteries. In my beliefs, there will come a day when we will know the answers. Until then, I keep my beliefs based on faith.
Again, this blog is great! I do so enjoy it.
posted by
CharliC
on March 17, 2006 at 7:35 AM
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CharliC - now I have time to finish my comment
I didn't get very far before I started laughing at your comment but I was quickly taken aback by the sincerity with which you say what you say. I exhaled a few "hoo boys" as I read on. By the end of your comment I realized that this is someone that I had better treat kindly. . . and I will. But you must know that it will be an effort on my part. Your first elaboration pertaining to getting off of the hook from damnation, (this is extrapulated by implication as the opposite of salvation) ignores too many realities. In a vast portion of the Muslim world for example; they are not exposed to the bible at all, in many places it is forbidden. Your logic has these people being spared damnation through ignorance of the word as well. This poses a huge problem and makes me feel for you when you say that you pray that everyone will find salvation through Jesus Christ. Who you happen to believe is/was the son of God. That huge problem is real demographics. (not "propaganda cleansed" demographics) Christianity is in decline globally. You have probably been told that it is growing but the growth is not real. You may have even heard numbers such as 30million more people became Christians (through some form of church rite such as baptism or confirmation). That type of little white lie would be typical and not entirely untrue. 30 million people did become Christians that year, it's just too bad that only 150 million people were born onto this planet in the same year. I can count, that's only 1/5th.
Currently, 33% of the world's populace is of Christian religions but the next generation is only producing 20% as tithing replacements for the church. This means that it will only be one generation before the Christian religions are no longer the world's largest religious group. This is why I feel for you if you sincerely wish that all people would be saved by the word of Jesus. The numbers are going in the wrong direction for this to happen. . . . what a cruel God.
posted by
gomedome
on March 16, 2006 at 9:28 PM
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CharliC - that's a decent attempt at some answers
Especially considering that they are tough questions.
posted by
gomedome
on March 16, 2006 at 6:58 PM
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Questions
I do not believe the God I worship will hold anyone accountable if they have not been given the opportunity to accept Jesus Christ and Salvation. I believe everyone will be given the opportunity to either accept it or deny it, or will not be held accountable for it.
As far as other religions, I am still unsure. I believe in only one God, but believe that he may be worshiped differently by different people. I know this does not make much sense as I am struggling to put my beliefs into words. One example of my beliefs is this. If you personally believe buying a lottery ticket is a sin, then for you it is a sin. If I do not believe it is a sin, then for me it is not a sin. There are certain areas which are open to interpretation. I believe God designed us that way. Naturally there are certain things that are sins no matter how you cut it, such as murder, stealing, etc... I don't believe everything though is straight black and white.
My sympathies as I mentioned in earlier post go out to anyone given the opportunity for salvation and rejects it. It is then that they will be held accountable and subject to the consequences. I know I am naive in some ways, but it comforts me to believe that everyone will eventually accept this salvation, though in reality I know it will not be.
I wish I was more knowledgeable about the Bible and better able to discuss the written Word. I have studied for years in Sunday School and attended Church off and on all my life. I consider it a personal failure that I am not more knowledgeable and am trying to rectify this. That is one reason I really like this Blog. It challenges me to really study my Bible more, to better answer any questions posed to me.
posted by
CharliC
on March 16, 2006 at 5:01 PM
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Jesus
his name probably was something like Yeshua ben Netzarim.
a Jew maybe of the Nazarene sect. which could have been a Pharisaical group. There can be only conjecture of this.
He was a rabbi, which would connect him with the Pharisees. He had something of an abrasive personality.
He was very popular, maybe because he preached liberation from the Temple tiruals, etc. -- that people could worship away from the Temple. He had his own synagogue, as noted in the gospel of John.
A type of enlightenment came to him. This also in found in John, when he says, "I am the bread of life", etc. People left him in droves. From ther he went to Jerusalem for Passover and the priest faction set up a "trial". Then they took him to Pilate and coerced Pilate into crucifying him.
If you look at the crucifixion, you will find Yeshua treated differently from usual. His legs weren ot broken. He was taken down after a few hours when the crucified were left to rot usually.
And in the gospel recognized as the arliest, you will find no resurrection pr se. Just a stone rolled back and a "young man" sitting on the bench where his body once was, telling the women (who came as the sun was SETTING) that Yeshua was not there, that he had gone before them to Galilee.
but what Yeshua did was preach Christ. This is the Christ we should recognize, not the one made up by the Medieval Church. I keep asking why 20th Century Protestants insist on embracing the religion of the Medieval Church that they have rejected.
posted by
Xeno-x
on March 16, 2006 at 3:43 PM
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CharliC
Graven Image: An idol (According to the New Webster's Dictionary.)
An idol does not need to be a statue or any such thing. A person can be an idol.
I have post planned for tomorrow about the idea of interpreting the Bible and how if we can not speak with God how are we to know what he means.
posted by
kooka_lives
on March 16, 2006 at 2:55 PM
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Oh yes I will answer! lol
It is just that I am at work and have to check this thing periodically. I will be off work later and can give it more time and thought!
I love this type of discussion.
posted by
CharliC
on March 16, 2006 at 1:45 PM
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CharliC -- so does that mean you won't attempt to answer the questions?
posted by
gomedome
on March 16, 2006 at 1:24 PM
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Xeno-x -- I actually sort of buy into that
To me, Jesus Christ is merely a manufactured persona, designed by man to illustrate what qualities the perfect human being would have. There is a lot to be said for an individual attempting to live their lives by emulating this depiction. The sad reality however is that using this depiction as a role model is not the primary focus of most believers. A host of other religious baggage and human shortcomings get in the way of simply utilizing the story of this persona as a means of self improvement.
posted by
gomedome
on March 16, 2006 at 1:22 PM
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Definition of "Graven Image"
When I hear the term "graven image" I think of statutes, etc... made from materials. Jesus is definitely not a graven image. He is the Son of God, sent to earth to save. He was and still to this day is the only "perfection" on this earth. He is part of God himself, just as your sons are a part of you.
He was crucified on the cross and therefore many Christians wear crosses, etc... but they do not "worship" the cross. It is merely an image to remind oneself of the sacrifice God made by sending his only Begotton Son to earth to die on the cross.
Christ still lives. He is a part of my everyday life. I can "feel" his very presence in my life. I have had prayers answered that were completely unexplainable by anything "earthly". Also, when I pray, I end all my prayers in Jesus name. I believe Jesus is the way to God. My prayers reach God through Christ Jesus. Sometimes people say I prayed for "something" etc... and my prayers were never answered. Well, sometimes, the answer is just a simple "No." Just as I have to tell my children sometimes. No. Generally there comes a time when all parents have to tell their children no. Just as God has to tell us No sometimes.
I do find it exciting to write and converse with someone with such different views. Especially if neither one of us tries to "convert" the other. This really just opens up a means of communication to help others grow. We can all grow our knowledge even if we do not ever truly agree.
posted by
CharliC
on March 16, 2006 at 1:17 PM
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CharliC - The bible may well say >>>>
"The Bible says the only way to Heaven is through his only begotten son, Jesus Christ." so this begs the questions: What of those peoples that have never read a bible? It took about 1,500 years before the story of Jesus reached North America for example. More people are born onto this planet today that do not hold this belief than do, what of them? Where it is a nice thought that believers are concerned about the souls of non believers, would this concern not extend to the countless billions that are taught a different set of beliefs or have never been exposed to any form of Christian religion? I am just curious about how you may answer these questions as you say that you have always felt sorry for non believers. Does this compassion stop at those who cannot believe in this or does it extend to all of these other luckless saps I have just mentioned as well?
posted by
gomedome
on March 16, 2006 at 1:08 PM
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CharliC
I hope my posts at least get you thinking.
I do not try to convert either. I just want people to think.
Going on that, you claim that you do not worship graven images, yet you also say you worship Jesus.
I present that Jesus is a graven image.
Please tell me why he should not be seen as such.
I understand that you believe as you do and I am not trying to question your faith. I am just asking you to look at the possibilities.
posted by
kooka_lives
on March 16, 2006 at 1:06 PM
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ah!!!!!!! another oner!!!!!! charlic -- welcome!!!!!
the vision of Jesus and God and that third person, the Holy Spirit
those are human images
graven images if you will
when you hinge your salvation on a graven image then you have problems.
Christ -- is not a person.
\in fact, Christ can be embraced by Atheists.
because Christ is a way of being.
posted by
Xeno-x
on March 16, 2006 at 1:00 PM
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From a Christian
I have spent a few minutes this afternoon reading this blog, but have not had time to really spend studying it, so I may be misinterpreting it. Tonight later, I will try to find time to study it for a more full understanding. But first,
The Christian that I am, and all other Christians that I know, DO NOT worship graven images. We worship God, Jesus Christ his son, and the Holy Spirit, as the Holy Trinity. The Bible says the only way to Heaven is through his only begotten son, Jesus Christ.
For most of my 40 years, I have always felt sorry for nonbelievers, as I worry about their afterlife. I truly worry about these people. I never want to pressure someone to take my beliefs, but on the other hand, I never want someone to try to change my beliefs.
This blog interests me as I am rarely if ever privy to the thoughts of non-believers.
posted by
CharliC
on March 16, 2006 at 12:46 PM
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Kooka_lives - this sort of thing makes me cackle with laughter
I especially like this part excerpted from Exodus 20 - 5 : ". . .for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God . . ." I the LORD thy God am also a bit of a pshyco, more than a little vain, love smighting poor saps that annoy me and have an incurable hurtling rock fetish (just look at any asteroid belt that I created). This begs a question: is a being capable of this kind of petty jealousy worthy of worship? Or better still: why is it that people are so willing to elevate such a nonsensical passage, that completely contradicts their own definition of an all powerful creator to a worthy contention?
As for the topic of this post in reference to graven images. Most people of Christian religions are for the most part nearly totally ignorant of their own religion's history. This is not an unfair statement by a longshot. If we in fact meet someone claiming to have a great deal of knowledge of their own religion it is almost from a completely one sided perspective. They have studied the bible, they have gone to church, they have gone on a camping trip with other Christians, or have done any number of things except look at their own faith objectively. It is almost a certainty that they will never have read a non partisan account of any Christian history (most of it has been destroyed over the years by the Christians anyways) and you can bet that even if they did, brainwashing and mind conditioning is so complete that they wouldn't get it anyways.
The point here and to get back on track is that Jesus Christ may have been a real person but his persona certainly is not. They didn't have corporate jets back then, he couldn't have possible been to all of the places and done all of the things accredited to him. Further, we have nothing written by him, only secondhand or anecdotal evidence of anything he ever said or did with all other accounts of his life written in the third person. Additionally, his persona was not elevated to diety status until a full 300 years after his death. Finally, just what is a crucifix? If it isn't a manufactured god, or a graven image then what the heck is?
posted by
gomedome
on March 16, 2006 at 11:29 AM
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