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Good answer, Damon!
Well played.
It's not quite what I was looking for from you, but it certainly suffices. I agree to a point on the detrimental effect of labels, but when the labels replace the issues as the subject of debate, discussion or argument. I do that myself when I get too riled up. But at the same time labels are necessary at some point in order to facilitate discussion, if for no other reason than to provide some sense of identity to the parties whose issues and agendas are being discussed.
posted by
WriterofLight
on January 27, 2006 at 7:43 PM
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Your Question...
...back to me entirely misses, or avoids, my point.
The whole business of using labels - party labels, insulting labels, liberal and conservative labels, immediately closes down rational debate. This has always been the case. Nowadays, however, people are wise enough to the fact to USE this fact to deliberately close down debate.
If I say this is a conservative standpoint, and you label yourself as a conservative, you'll be more inclined to agree with it.
If I say this is a liberal standpoint, you're more likely to disagree with it.
If you label me as a liberal, or a democrat, or a peace-nik, or a middle-class boy, then you immediately view me, and everything I say, through that lens.
I'm suggesting that debate is much clearer when we stop labelling ourselves and each other and get down to the nitty-gritty of the issue.
D
posted by
DamonLeigh
on January 27, 2006 at 2:37 AM
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Welcome, kiwidreams!
There are times for rational and reasoned debate, and I hope I provide such here when appropriate. But there are also times for satire, sarcasm and outrage, and this was such a time.
posted by
WriterofLight
on January 25, 2006 at 7:19 PM
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Damon, I forgot something . . .
On the issue of "us " vesus "them," a question: Are you this critical of liberal attacks on conservatives? If you are speaking (writing) your truth here, then you need to answer that in the affirmative.
posted by
WriterofLight
on January 25, 2006 at 7:17 PM
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Damon, glad to see you enjoy sarcasm!
Sarcasm is using humor to point out ridiculous extremes. I got into it hot and heavy here, and am glad you picked up on it. My proposed bans on intrusions were an extreme exxaggeration of the liberals' posturing on FISA surveillance.
I know that not every opponent of the invasion of Iraq is a "Saddam-lover." But the rhetoric of some war opponents, carried to its logical conclusion even without sarcasm, points very strongly in the direction of preferring that he were still in people as absolute dictator with all the horrible attendant consequences.
The business with Kennedy and Ms. Kopechne is not sarcasm. That, my friend, is absolute outrage that this man has neither faced punishment for leaving her to die when any of us would still be in the slammer had we done it, nor had the integrity to resign his post. It is absolute outrage that he now dares to pronounce judgement on the moral and ethical fitness of anyone else. If you want to condemn someone for not respecting her parents, you can start with the Old Sot.
posted by
WriterofLight
on January 25, 2006 at 7:16 PM
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C'mon, Bud, Do Your Homework!
You haven't been paying attention. I have never said, nor will ever say, Bush is always right. He is flat wrong on:
- Govenment spending
- Not pursuing Social Security reform
- Kissing up to the Democrats (thankfully, that may finally be at an end)
- Border secuirty and illegal immigration
Feel better?
Now, as for "The level of intelligence of those that suport (sic) him is an indication of their leader's prowess."
You have two problems here. One is called John Kerry. Kerry was a black hole of leadership prowess during his campaign, despite the abundance of purported intellectuals who supported his candidacy in 2004. The other is called Ronald Reagan. Reagan was one of the most effective leaders we've ever had (assuming you equate prowess with effectiveness) and enjoyed enormous support among the supposedly uneducated ordinary Americans.
Iraq (presumably) is a total failure? Gee, I think 25,000,000 Iraqis who have been liberated from Sadaam would beg to differ. Especially those who voted in any of the three nationwide elections, the first free elections in the country ever.
Osama? What have you to say about Clinton refusing to apprehend him when given two chances to do so?
You are right about Iran, at least about the mad mullahs. But never write off American ability, will or action.
posted by
WriterofLight
on January 25, 2006 at 7:08 PM
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I have to say I largely agree with Damon here. Its 'lets avoid a rational, reasoned debate by smearing our opponents position and paiting it as something it is not' time. Liberty needs as much defending from its would be defenders as its sworn enemies.
posted by
Leafonariver
on January 25, 2006 at 3:11 PM
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It's All Just...
...just party politics to you, isn't it? All 'they say that' and 'they did this', all us and them.
I wonder if there's any chance of the so-called 'civilized nations' growing up in the next century or so and recognising that such tit-for-tatting and name calling should never really be taken outside the schoolyard gates.
Probably not, actually, as all this stuff is just froth and bluster to hide the real issues beneath labels like conspiracy theory, names like Sot, and ancient misdemeanors like driving a car into the river whilst pissed. (I'm always curious to what great extent your respect for the dead girls folks disappear when you need a cheap jibe).
This I found very funny...
...the following intrusions on privacy to be immediately banned: - All police surveillance
- All police investigations and detective work
- All police monitoring of traffic
- All drunk driving checkpoints
- All monitoring of pedophiles
- All patrolling of our borders
- All airport security checkpoints
See, that's where you get all out of shape. Suggesting the any resistance to the outrageous policies being pushed through by this "administration" equals the calling for all security measures ever taken to be "banned" is as sane as suggesting that any resistance to the illegal invasion of Iraq is tantamount to being a Saddam-lover. Or that sugestions that the War on Terror might be a bit more about oil and profits and keeping the US economy ticking along than it is about tackling the actual problem of international terrorism is the same as being an al-Qaeda member.
It's time to wake up and grow up. You can't stay in this stupor forever.
D
posted by
DamonLeigh
on January 25, 2006 at 7:54 AM
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Apparantly Idiot is the catchword for the week..........
Great post.....loved reading it........
I'll have to check with Scoop....is it your week for wearing the mask, Kemosabe?
posted by
Corbin_Dallas
on January 25, 2006 at 5:21 AM
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I Enjoyed Reading the Post
posted by
Dr_JPT
on January 24, 2006 at 8:01 PM
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You have a lot say about how everyone is an idiot from the Supreme Court,
to the Senate and only Bushy Babe is always right. Near the end you made a statement to the effect that, "liberals think Bush is an Idiot" That I wish to take up with you.
Liberals know that Bush is an Idiot! Why?
The level of intelligence of those that suport him is an indication of their leader's prowess.
When you step away and have a good look at yourselves and what you have lost in the real world and compare it to what Bush says he has saved your nation from, again without proof, you can't point to anything of value that your exaulted Pres has done.
Not even catch Osama who did that 911 thing. All we can see is the total failure of an illegal invasion. The loss of strength in the eyes of your foes.
No one in Iran gives two shits about Bush's huffing and puffing. He ain't gonna do a friggin' thing because he had his chance to act rationaly but blew it with his invasion.
Countries like Iran now take heart and says "F*$# You Bush you blow hard. Come on and make my day!
posted by
Bud-Oracle
on January 24, 2006 at 7:42 PM
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