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You are welcome. A lot more substance enters the discussion that way.
posted by
Dyl_Pickle
on January 23, 2006 at 5:22 PM
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So then Dylan
You are saying if you bug God more and get others to bug him as well he is more likely to give in?
I am lose as to how if God hears all prayers that he would be more likely to grant a prayer if it was being repeated to him by others. It seems that if God is going to grant the prayer to begin with, then he will grant it. I would think no amount of added prayer would make any difference.
Although you have inspired a new post based on that idea.
And thank you for presenting your belief in such a polite manner that actually can be about conveying disagreeing ideas and views in a manner that is non-attacking.
posted by
kooka_lives
on January 23, 2006 at 1:15 PM
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I'm not saying we NEED to have an intercessor,
or various symbols such as crosses and Hail Marys.
I'm saying that using them is not necessarily idolatry. Like when one person asks others to pray for him. He is not worshiping other people -- just asking them to intercede for him.
posted by
Dyl_Pickle
on January 22, 2006 at 6:29 PM
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Dylan
None of that makes any sense though.
First off God clearly says not to make those things because they are not needed. If you are saying that you need to pray to God through a cross, then that cross is very clearly a graven image.
Second, if you need to ask Mary or any saint to go and tell God your prayers, then that is saying that God does not hear your prayer unless you have someone tell him about them. So once more we create a graven image there as well, since the prayers (Worshipping) has to go through a 'middle man' so to speak.
God does not seem to want to have people worshipping or praying to symbols of him, since that is creating an idol or graven image. He gives no exception to this rule. The commandment is very clear you just do not do it, even it is is suppose to be an idol to him.
All of what you are claiming goes against the idea that God hears your prayers no matter what or where you are. Also, my understanding is that God is the one who decides if your prayers should be answered, so asking Mary or a saint to interceded would say that God's judgment should not be trusted. Your examples do not fit with the Bible itself and clearly weaken the ideas of God.
posted by
kooka_lives
on January 19, 2006 at 8:01 PM
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One more point...
When Catholics pray to Mary or the saints, they are not necessarily worshiping them. They are praying for Mary or a saint to intercede with God on the prayer's behalf.
Hence, "Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us..."
Mary and the saints are venerated, not worshiped, in Catholic doctrine.
posted by
Dyl_Pickle
on January 19, 2006 at 6:52 PM
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Kooka Lives,
if anyone is worshiping the Crucifix, or the Virgin Mary, or any other "graven image," then they are certainly violating the Commandment.
However, displaying items of reverence does not mean one is worshiping them. They are symbols of God, not God himself.
If anyone does worship these things, they are not only breaking the Commandment; they are going against the policies of all the Christian churches I have ever been to, and that includes Lutheran, Episcopal, Presbyterian and Catholic.
My Rosary is, for me, a reminder -- a reminder that God is with me, a reminder that I rely on a power above and beyond myself, a reminder that I ought to pray. It is not an idol, not an object of worship.
posted by
Dyl_Pickle
on January 19, 2006 at 6:49 PM
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kooka_lives -- if people begin making contact with their own personal Gods
and subsequently abandone the need for churches or iconic images of worship who's gonna fill the collection plate? Or maybe even more importantly, who's gonna replace all of those jobs making all of the religious images? Thinking like this could put half of China out of work.
posted by
gomedome
on January 19, 2006 at 10:16 AM
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