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Straightforward,

good obs, except that when I call it a sin issue, it personalizes it for me and I realize that I am capable of cooking the books equally as much as others.  I am capable of fudging the records in my benefit.  I am not pointing the finger but acknowledging that this is something each of is equally capable of doing.

posted by JanesOpinion on January 8, 2006 at 7:59 AM | link to this | reply

The moment we call it a sin issue, don't we get kinda judgemental?

posted by Straightforward on January 8, 2006 at 1:18 AM | link to this | reply

cyclops

“The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness.”

The eye that is evil is opposite of the eye that is single. The evil eye is dualistic and sees a world of others. He is deluded. His world is dark and evil.

posted by enlighteningrod on January 7, 2006 at 11:56 PM | link to this | reply

enlighten, regarding your last question,

I'm sure it's just you.

Thanks for commenting.

posted by JanesOpinion on January 7, 2006 at 5:20 PM | link to this | reply

Is it just me?

‘Love thy neighbor as thyself’ is less of a philosophical concept than a scientific one. It is less of a commandment about how to act, and more of a statement about reality. There is no way to ever prove that anyone or anything exists outside of your own mind. We act as though there are others, but we should not delude ourselves into believing that there really are others. ‘If thy right eye offend thee, then pluck it out.’ Others are no less a part of ourselves than our eyes. We deal with others in the same way we deal with our own bodies. When they need strengthening or correcting then we strengthen or correct, but we shouldn’t lose sight of the fact that it is just ourselves that we are dealing with. Is everybody nuts, or is it just me?

posted by enlighteningrod on January 7, 2006 at 3:53 PM | link to this | reply

Friend Gomedome,

I'm almost ROFL!  So we're making progress, eh?  And regarding that bit of foreign verbiage in your vocabulary, well, it is certainly a concept the human race has struggled with, but is nonetheless a worthy goal to attempt to strive for.  Dontcha think?

Have a GREAT weekend!

(and thanks for the conversation; I've enjoyed it!)

posted by JanesOpinion on January 6, 2006 at 7:18 PM | link to this | reply

JanesOpinion -- okay you had me almost agreeing, I can live with your

unintended social faux paus by using a word that is not in my vocabulary  . . . (Sin) in case my subtlety is too subtle? We are stumbling on nuances of definitions in finding further agreement . . but that's a start. Honest and Scout's honour, I did get 3/4 of the way through your comment in almost full agreement with only minor caveates but then I ran into the line of "Love thy Neighbour as thyself" (or whatever it was) and thought hoo boy, it was so close but I couldn't get over that statement. When ever in the recorded history of mankind, has an underlying philosophy such as this ever succeeded as a societal moral cornerstone? .....but 3/4 is pretty good dontcha think?   

posted by gomedome on January 5, 2006 at 8:57 PM | link to this | reply

Gomedome, you've written an excellent mini thesis!

And definitely made some valid points. However, the root cause of all your observations is still -- at least from a religious perspective -- sin! Don't you think?

Granted, if you attempt to remove the concept of sin, then yes I see your point. Our system of ethical business was gradually muddied by the influx of different cultural norms and methods of doing business. 

But in essence, it boils down very simply to a lack of loving our neighbors as ourselves.

Great discussion.  Thank you.

posted by JanesOpinion on January 5, 2006 at 10:20 AM | link to this | reply

Wislon, I would definitely concur with you!

posted by JanesOpinion on January 5, 2006 at 10:17 AM | link to this | reply

Capitalism is like guns

  It isn't good or bad. People are are the ones who cause the problems.

posted by wislon on January 4, 2006 at 9:34 AM | link to this | reply

JanesOpinion -I can offer a different perspective as to some of the reasons

why we have seen a general decay in ethics over the last few decades. It has been bred into each successive generation of business students. Back in the 70's, when I was in college, there was a clear focus on business ethics, with the dilemas that decision makers face every day taught as examples. Declaring bankruptcy back then equalled shame, all graduates were groomed to become good corporate citizens. Within a decade of my graduating, they were teaching the art of maximizing cash flow by virtue of not paying bills on time, seriously, it was considered good business to stretch net 30 days to net 60 and beyond without penalty. The premise being that a company could satisfy it's day to day business needs by utilizing the cash earmarked as another company's receivables.  I identify the time period of the institution of this mindset, as the point where general business ethics began to decay rapidly. (circa early 80's) At this point we have every smuck hanging onto the money they owe with more and more companies becoming receivables poor. Then another huge influence crept into our domestic businesses in the opening up of international markets. "Cut them until they bleed" or "business and war strategies are the same thing" were mantras of investors from different cultures than ours. Meanwhile all resources were becoming commodities and all business costs were escalating. The onus shifted from old fashioned and increasingly outdated principles of being good corporate citizens to simply competing and surviving. It no longer mattered how one succeeded in business but "if" and only if.

I can see where you are trying to draw a parrallel with these developments and the general move away from religious values in society as a whole. I don't fully disagree but instead suggest that the two trends, though taking place concurrently, are not necessarily exclusive causal factors to each other.  Capitolism as a system has a shelf life. In it's mature stages, overconsumption, false expectations and eventual collapse are inevitable. The voracious appetites of the system itself, in all that it consumes, both in the realms of tangible and non tangible, insure that sustainability is not possible over the long haul.   

posted by gomedome on January 3, 2006 at 8:50 PM | link to this | reply

My dear Justsouno,

I would NEVER erase a comment of yours. I treasure them!

And yes, thank God for our democractic, capitalistic society along with the rich history!! I agree God made it very clear how we were to care for the poor -- the widows, orphans, etc -- very clear.  I believe very strongly that if Christians followed the God given principal of tithing (along with the many other financial principals in the Bible), there would not be poverty in this country!  But it saddens me to see that Christians only give, on average, about 2-4% of their income?  (Do you know the exact amount?)  If all Christians gave 10% imagine what that would do to our society.  All the expensive entitlement programs would not be needed!

posted by JanesOpinion on January 3, 2006 at 5:15 PM | link to this | reply

Thank YOU, Mandalee, for stopping by and commenting!

posted by JanesOpinion on January 3, 2006 at 5:09 PM | link to this | reply

Dr JPT

I would agree.  Someone sees how easy it is to fudge the rules and how much money can be made and so that person tries it and then experiments with a few more rules and . . . .

Thanks for stopping by!

posted by JanesOpinion on January 3, 2006 at 5:09 PM | link to this | reply

Gome, I like that phrase "ethical malaise."

Good one!  And I would concur with you that the ethical malaise we're seeing in society is more than whether one believes or not.  But for whatever reasons (and it's a long, involved and complex subject) we are seeing more and more muddying of the moral ethos that once was so prevalent.  There was a time when, whether one was a Christian or not, one simply followed the Ten Commandments and in general did everything possible to incorporate its tenents into his or her life. 

For whatever reason, following such judeo-christian principals is no longer nearly as popular -- Christian or not -- and we are seeing the consequences of that fall out.

Thanks, as always for stopping by!

posted by JanesOpinion on January 3, 2006 at 5:08 PM | link to this | reply

Jane's sorry I was in

to much of a hurry to post a comment. That 'was' US in the first line of the second paragraph is sad the US... Don't know what all else is goobldy gook, erase it all if you want. J

posted by Justi on January 3, 2006 at 9:58 AM | link to this | reply

God invented Capitalism, make all you can

giving the first fruits to the work of God's people, helping the poor, proviging aid of any kind to those who have no way to get their needs met. My needs are always met when I give to God's needs first, always.

I keep thinking about how was US felt for the Russians during the Communist strong hold or (USSR) as it was. It was the company store, no good, company farm little to eat and a tiny shack or an apartment 10X10 and 10 residents in it. It was called good by the powers that were and it is called good by the ACLU~~~~~~~~~

posted by Justi on January 3, 2006 at 9:56 AM | link to this | reply

JanesOpinion, Thanks for the terrific post. Such a blessing. You are so

right.

posted by Amanda__ on January 3, 2006 at 8:41 AM | link to this | reply

JanesOpinion -- the paragraph that I paraphrased could be construed as

blaming those who do not hold a certain set of beliefs for the moral decay of society in general. Found in the words: "....where it doesn't matter what a person believes . . . " I just thought it important to remind anyone that may want to travel down this avenue of thought, that virtually all of the directors found guilty in both the Worldcom and Enron scandals were born and raised in societies that were/are predominantly Christian, with most of them coming from Christian families. This fact doesn't shed any light on why an individual would become so corrupt, nor does it explain to any degree how our society and our capitolist system has fostered the mindset that propigates these types of criminal actions. What it does do however, is refute any notion of a lack of religion, or any lack of a specific set of religious beliefs being an important ingredient in white collar crime. The ethical malaise, currently prevalent within much of corporate America, is a paradigm whos development and proliferation is much more deep rooted than attempts to categorize criminals by virtue of what they happen to believe.      

posted by gomedome on January 3, 2006 at 7:35 AM | link to this | reply

I Agree With You

I think it boils down to individual actions (good or bad) that starts with a little impact and can get large, especially the old adage (one  bad apple will will spoil the bunch/barrel)

posted by Dr_JPT on January 3, 2006 at 7:06 AM | link to this | reply

Not certain which "criminal Christians" you're referring to, Gome,

but whether Christian or non, I believe they will be held accountable to God for their actions. As Jesus said "whatever you have done to the least of these, you have done it to me."  So I believe an act against poorer people or those less able to defend themselves, would be an act against Christ himself.

posted by JanesOpinion on January 3, 2006 at 4:29 AM | link to this | reply

JanesOpinion - You said it all here >>>>>

"Indeed, with the increasing moral relativism that is becoming so popular in America and elsewhere, where it doesn’t matter what a person believes, what his or her values are, “what’s good for you may not work for me” type mentality – we’re going to see more and more greed. We’re going to see the rules bent,........."

So when are those criminal Christians gonna get their acts together and learn to walk on the strait and narrow?   

posted by gomedome on January 2, 2006 at 8:54 PM | link to this | reply

Well said, Offbeats, well said.

And with that, I am heading off to bed with a clear conscience and anticipating a good night's sleep. Thank you as always for frequenting this establishment.

posted by JanesOpinion on January 2, 2006 at 7:08 PM | link to this | reply

Janes

I completely concur with this view! One of the greatest assets of capitalism is  that it creates competition. Competition has no religion nor political preferences. However even in business we must ask ourselves every day, are we doing the right thing...if you can sleep at night, and believe in your heart you have given it your best,  then chances are you going to succeed!

Excellent post!

posted by Offy on January 2, 2006 at 6:19 PM | link to this | reply

Mongeaux, great quote from Churchill.

That certainly sounds like him!

posted by JanesOpinion on January 2, 2006 at 4:10 PM | link to this | reply

Great essay

I am reminded of Sir Winston Churchill's comment on Democracy:

“It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.”

The same applies to economic systems - capitalism may not be perfect but it is the least bad of the the lot

Great article!.

posted by Mongeaux on January 2, 2006 at 1:02 PM | link to this | reply

Hemlock, me thinks we're all capable of doing tremendous wrong.

Sorry but you're not going to get an answer out of me.  I do have my opinion but will keep it to myself.

posted by JanesOpinion on January 2, 2006 at 12:37 PM | link to this | reply

Jane--

So who are the most sinful , liberals and Democrats, ot conservatives and Republicans?

posted by Hemlocker on January 2, 2006 at 11:00 AM | link to this | reply

Yup Corbin, it's not a popular notion, eh?

But I really think that's what it all boils down to.

posted by JanesOpinion on January 2, 2006 at 9:38 AM | link to this | reply

Why thank you, billy_cargo.

I appreciate your compliments!

posted by JanesOpinion on January 2, 2006 at 9:38 AM | link to this | reply

Janes.....

A great read.....

It's difficult to view something as a "sin" issue when the prevalent thought  in the secular world is  "anything goes".  

posted by Corbin_Dallas on January 2, 2006 at 9:06 AM | link to this | reply

Janes, this is a thoughtful, cogent post. I agree w/everything it says

posted by FreeManWalking on January 2, 2006 at 8:56 AM | link to this | reply