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WriterofLight,
If all you say is "real" fact?? Then the bigger questions become, how and why did America end up invading Iraq???
posted by
Glennb
on November 21, 2005 at 10:19 PM
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Welcome, Dylan Valente!
Thanks so much for reading! You did a great job of expanding on the moral and ethical difficulties I was trying to describe.
kiwi, good to have you checking in. I don't see it as an "eye for an eye" issue. Besides not answering the basic question I posed, I think you missed a premise of the situation I was proposing: The intelligence is in place already that an attack is imminent, so it would be readily apparent if bad information were produced.
Your argument reminds me of something I saw years ago, to the effect that terror attacks against the former Soviet presence in the Middle East came to a screeching halt after the Soviets "disappeared" the perpetrators of the attacks, returning them to their home towns soon afterward in various states of gruesome disassembly.
Beyond that, you have a couple of problems. I'd highly recommend that you ask the Afghanis, Khurds, Shiites or Sunnis if the war on terror has been a complete failure. And terrorism was already spreading the world over before we began fighting back; remember September 11, the first World Trade Center attack, Locherbie and the Munich Olympics, for starters.
FW, repeat after me: Tortured . . .reasoning . . . does . . . not . . . work . . . (Then, as you go to sleep: Come . . . to . . . the . . . light. . . 
)
Corbin and OFFBEATS, thanks for the support!
posted by
WriterofLight
on November 21, 2005 at 7:37 PM
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Very well-made argument.
But I think the definite perils of permitting torture outweigh the possible benefits. While I agree that it is conceivable that torture could reveal crucial information to thwart a terror attack, the circumstances that would trigger justifiable torture are ones very unlikely to come together at the same time.
On the other hand, when we release lawful authorities from conventions against torture, there is a strong chance (a probability) that the power will be abused, more so if there is no independent oversight, which this administration is also extremely averse to.
One grave threat to innocent people comes from terrorists. Another comes from unlimited government power. Far more innocent people have been killed by governments - often their own governments - than by terrorists. (The Soviet police state, the Russians in Chechyna, Saddam Hussein, and on and on.) It is because the U.S. restricts police power at home and abroad that we are safe from the abuses of those types of governments.
Nevertheless, your argument does have merit at a moral and theoretical level. And you state the case very succinctly and aptly. I'll be back.
posted by
Dyl_Pickle
on November 21, 2005 at 1:05 PM
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So.....the world hasn't really moved on from an eye to an eye then. Leaveing the moral questions aside for a second, don't you honestly think that torture simply isn't effective. People under duress of torture will say any old rubbish to make it stop so the usefullness of the information is doubtful. Going back to the moral arguments, isn't it a case of making the ideologues of terror's case for them if 'we' resort to torture. The words 'giant' and 'recruting poster' spring to mind. In reality the 'war on terror' is a complete failure. Terrorism has spread the world over and the Middle East has been seriously destablised and the message of hate peddled by the terrorists is gaining currency precisely because of the 'war and terror' and where it is taking us.
posted by
Leafonariver
on November 21, 2005 at 12:20 PM
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Repeat after me, too...
Torture is wrong when used by one civilized nation's people on another....it is repugnant. That is not what we have here........we are dealing with animals. And sometimes they only understand a more direct approach.
Mystic......you crack me up.......how's the weather in LA LA Land?
posted by
Corbin_Dallas
on November 21, 2005 at 5:44 AM
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Wright
Repeat after me...sometimes torture is justified..sometimes it delivers us much need information. Torture sounds like the most Gawd awful thing that can happen to a POW...but we know what being to nice can do as well. Like the two terrorists that were let go from 'Gitmo" because bleeding hearts thought it was so inhumane to keep them under lock and key! They only went on to kill another 4 people..such nice people now aren't they? We need to get information and by Gawd if it requires sleep deprevation, a constant water drop on their head, a bitch slap, go for it!
posted by
Offy
on November 21, 2005 at 5:10 AM
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Repeat after me:
Torture. Does. Not. Work.
posted by
fwmystic
on November 21, 2005 at 4:57 AM
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