Go to The Reverend Kooka Speaks About Religious Bulls#!t
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Kooka--I totally understand that you weren't MEANING to be
disrespectful. And I understand that you may think that be Bible is BS. And I NEVER said that it is the only place my faith comes from. I'm just saying that calling the Bible BS is disrespectful. Say you don't believe it. Fine. Say it bears no relationship to fact. Fine. But don't call something that Christians (myself included) consider holy.
Really, look at it from that perspective. If I said, "Kooka, I don't understand or agree with your views," that's one thing. If I said, "Kooka, your beliefs are bullshit," that's another. It's insulting rather than productive. It does nothing but undermine your previously stated ambition to have a more open society. That's all I'm trying to say.
Look, I'm all for calling things as I see them. I can't and won't begrudge you that. If you think the Bible is BS, I don't have a problem with that. If you want to shout from the rooftops, "Hey, the Bible is Bullshit!" feel free. But then don't get angry when some Christian comes along and tells you that your beliefs are bullshit.
I'm over being offended by it, personally. It saddens me to see "Bible" and "BS" in the same sentence just as much as it would for me to see someone vandalize a cross. Why? Because to me it is a symbol. It is a symbol of all that I consider holy. To you it is not. So do as you wish.
I think there needs to be much more DIALOGUE amongst differing factions and less name calling, etc... I think we could all agree on that.
posted by
Renigade
on November 21, 2005 at 3:27 PM
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R-3
So your beliefs are purely of the Bible and not beyond it? That can not work for a true beliefs system, which is one of the great weaknesses I keep seeing in our modern forms of organized religions.,
Also, as I stated, when a believer states that the Bible is the true word of God and is absolute truth they are showing just as much insult to my personal beliefs as I am showing to theirs by claiming the Bible to be B.S.
When I say the Bible is B.S. it is not a personal attack nor is it any more disrespectful than for anyone to express their beliefs to begin with. I am not saying the faith is wrong or that it is foolish to believe as they do. I am not attacking anyone's intelligence. I am making a statement about my beliefs.
Did you read my post on Scientology? Do you feel I was being disrespectful there? Do you feel it was disrespectful of me to say that Scientology was equally as unbelievable as any other religion that is out there?
I have often said the Bible is a poorly written work of fiction, which is in some ways harsher than just saying it is B.S.
The only true way for your idea of respect to be given to all is for everyone to just not talk about religious beliefs to begin with. My beliefs are insulted every time a believer goes and talks about how great God is and how perfect the Bible is and so on. Yet I understand that such is a statement of their faith and beliefs and so I do not take it as an insult or being disrespectful because I look at it from the idea of personal views. You need to look at my posts from the same perspective if you wish to really understand the ideas I present.
posted by
kooka_lives
on November 21, 2005 at 2:04 PM
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kooka--You are talking in circles. You know as well as I do
that the CENTER of Christian belief lies in lessons from the Bible. Whether all of us take the stories literally or not is another discussion.
When you call the Bible (or the Koran, etc...) B.S. then you ARE belittling and being offensive. It is a Holy Book to Christians. Like I said, whether or not all Christians take the actual STORIES literally is another story. None-the-less, it carries much weight in the Christian faith. To call it B.S. is disprespectful.
Maybe you need to reexamine just how tolerant of others you truly are. Your comment suggests otherwise.
posted by
Renigade
on November 21, 2005 at 12:12 PM
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blackcat
I have been in situations where I have been treated negatively because it was known that I was an atheist. I have been threatened with physical violence even. I have been called stupid, ignorant and so on because of my religious beliefs, even here on Blogit. One guy here even called me 'mildly retarded' because I was not a believer. Be open about being an atheist is not an easy thing and will often draw in unwanted attention.
This one time I got one of those door to door Bible pusher who had to make it her duty to try and convert me when I told her I did not believe. It was the first time I was honest with one, instead of just taking their handouts and and being polite. I told her I was an atheist and she came back a few more times because she was so worried about me. She quoted the Bible and gave me more handouts and wanted me to get to church. I explained to her the way I saw it and she returned a very blank look to me. Of course her handout turned out to be very entertaining since it lacked a lot of facts and was full of misinformation. Most likely if I would have just taken her handout and said 'thank you', she would have never returned to try and push her beliefs on me.
As I said, there are people I know who I am not about to tell that I am an atheist because I do not wish to have problems with them, and I know they would have a problem with my beliefs. I just avoid talking religion with them to begin with.
Atheist can celebrate any holidays they wish. I do not see Christmas, Easter of Halloween as religious holidays because I do not celebrate them as such. Instead I enjoy them for being festive occasion to spend with my family and do fun activities. Atheism would be more open to celebrating holidays because of there being no religious issue stopping them.
posted by
kooka_lives
on November 21, 2005 at 11:43 AM
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R-3
I still have not called any beliefs B.S., I just said the Bible was. My post here does nothing towards breeding intolerance.
Here is the quote "I can only hope that more and more people come out and admit that they really do not believe in the B.S. of the Bible". The line itself is obviously my views, as was the post itself. At no point did I attack anyone's beliefs. If you can not separate your personal beliefs from the Bible itself, then that is your problem. The Bible is just a book and if you can not hold your beliefs to be true without the Bible itself, then I would have to question your beliefs.
Most of the ideas I talked about in that last comment may not have been presented in this post, but have been presented time and time again in previous posts. I can not lie about how I view the Bible, just as believers make the claim that the Bible is the word of God and is pure truth, which I find to be very offensive and such statements are equally an insult to my beliefs as my claim that the Bible is B.S. is to theirs. So are believers going to stop making the claim that the Bible is the only truth and is the real word of God? That is their views I do not take their views as being a personal attack against my beliefs, just as my views are not a personal attack against theirs.
posted by
kooka_lives
on November 21, 2005 at 11:32 AM
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I never knew it was hard to be an atheist? Maybe it depends where you
live? In this area, you can believe in just about anything... the whole NY melting pot thing. Nothing surprises me anymore.
btw... do Atheists have any holidays? That's what I'd miss most. LOL
posted by
-blackcat
on November 21, 2005 at 10:50 AM
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Kooka--Fine. To say you don't believe is one thing. To publicly call
it bullshit only breeds intolerence. NEVER have I referred to another's persons beliefs (including yours) as being "B.S." And let me remind you that the whole caveat you just offered was not included in your post. Can you really not see how offensive that is?
Really, tell me how you would feel if I wrote, "Athiests believe in bullshit." Shows a complete lack of tolerence and respect for other's views, imho.
I'll never take offense at someone for beleiving differently than me. But try to do so in a more respectful tone. Ariel70 provides a fine example, I think, of an athiest who expresses his views HONESTLY without just being rude.
posted by
Renigade
on November 21, 2005 at 10:47 AM
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r-3
I was expressing my personal beliefs there. I show respect by being honest. I will not lie or hold back making the claim that as far as I am concerned the Bible is a collection of B.S. There is respect in such an attitude because I ma being honest and not playing games, pretending that I feel one way just to make people happy. Respect is not about being 'politically correct' or trying to not offend people. Respect is about being honest. It would be different if I was to start calling believers stupid or say that all who follow that beliefs are immoral or evil. Unless you feel that the book is more important than the people themselves.
I do not call the Beliefs themselves B.S., considering that most of the claimed beliefs really do not follow the ideas as presented in the Bible, but various interpretation editing out a good deal of what is actually said there. BAsically the Bible itself is not the beliefs that are followed, just a book of poor fiction (Yes, once more that is my opinion on the matter).
My basic beliefs in religion is that is should be a 100% personal concept, completely figured out by the individual themselves, with no influence from any organized religion involved. If that means that someone reads the Bible purely on their own and find it to be what they need, then great for them. I would never put that down or try to claim that such is wrong for that person. For me the Bible is B.S. and really lacks for the most part in teaching anything of value. The majority of you well made movies do a better job at getting good moral concepts taught.
The only kinds of beliefs I show no respect for are ones which promote intolerance and ignorance, since such ideas lack respect to begin with.
posted by
kooka_lives
on November 21, 2005 at 9:13 AM
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kooka--
If I called your beliefs "B.S.", you would call me disrespectful. For someone who claims to want a society that accepts people of all all belief systems, you certainly don't convey it.
"B.S. of the Bible" is hardly a comment that shows respect for those who believe differently than you.
posted by
Renigade
on November 21, 2005 at 8:55 AM
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people that are
unable to discern validty from invalidty
that's the problem.
and they hold steadfastly to their invalidity.
must admit
Christianity does breed Atheism.
posted by
Xeno-x
on November 21, 2005 at 8:44 AM
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kooka_lives -- it is encouraging - some of the bible derived dribble we are
treated to is scary stuff. Scary in that some of these supposedly educated people actually buy it. The lengths they will go to in their efforts to make it appear real to themselves, faith healings, miracles and the entire gammat of religious tricks, are all notions that are devoid in the non believing mindset. Encouraging because if nothing else, this trend offers balance.
posted by
gomedome
on November 20, 2005 at 9:36 PM
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