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JanesOpinion - the sad truth is that while I was in the
middle of all of this, I was completely oblivious to what was going on. It wasn't until quite a time later in life that I began to understand what I had witnessed. Yes I agree that there is a lot we do not know about. I wouldn't want to say that all celibate members of the Catholic Church are unable to keep their vows but common sense tells us that there is no way that some of them don't fall off the wagon.
posted by
gomedome
on November 14, 2005 at 7:21 PM
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To facilitate this devotion, most nuns and priests spent the majority of their time sequestered away, in monastaries, convents or parish rectories having little contact with society.
Haven't they found tunnels between some of the monasteries and convents? Meeting places? Piles of bones from infant deaths? I wonder if this happened more commonly than people wish to know.
I have always believed that Catholic priests and nuns should be allowed to marry. It certainly is an extra biblical notion that they are to be eternally celibate.
Good post, although it is a horrific, and very sad thought to think of the countless children (mostly boys) forever effected by the perverts of whom you wrote.
posted by
JanesOpinion
on November 14, 2005 at 7:15 PM
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gomey, and as you and those of us in the comment section have
pointed out...we're not buying it.
posted by
Ariala
on November 14, 2005 at 5:13 PM
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Ariala - that's my point in it's entirety
Today we find the Catholic Church selling us a bill of goods on how exactly these attrocities were allowed to proliferate, claiming near innocence when some of us know different.
posted by
gomedome
on November 14, 2005 at 11:08 AM
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Gome and Ariel,
Let's not forget that the Pope's title means "Christ on Earth," giving him and his demon priests the authority to make laws and claim they came direcly from God Himself. Any person in their right mind would not believe in such a claim, but then again, I'm a protestant and protest against Rome. I'm not saying they condone molesting children, because they don't, but to protect the criminals rather than the victims, is just about saying and doing the same thing.
posted by
Ariala
on November 14, 2005 at 11:02 AM
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ariel70 -- I briefly touched on your point in this posting
Ancient practices surviving into the modern era and unnaceptable by today's standards, is another important influencing factor that cannot be overlooked. If not the actual practice itself, the underlying mentalities surviving that allowed those in the church hierarchy to turn a blind eye to such actions. Not the least of which was the church considering itself a law unto itself.
posted by
gomedome
on November 14, 2005 at 10:03 AM
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Ariala, Gome, Xeno et al
Celibacy is a fairly recent historical prohibition in the Church.
And sexual abuse by priests it is far from being a recent phenomenon, for the concept of solicitatio ad turpiam - soliciting sexual favours from females - dates back to about the 10th century.
Child sexual abuse by Inquisitors was prevalent through out the history of both the Roman ( Papal ) Inquisition, and its Spansih counterpart. I'm posting my first piece on the Spanish Inquisition later this evening
posted by
ariel70
on November 14, 2005 at 9:41 AM
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Ariala -- the entire problem, which had existed for centuries was brought
to a critical juncture with the relatively recent sexual revolution. As all members of our societies became more aware of their sexuality and as ancient prohibitions on sexual activity were relaxed, the priesthood came under siege, there simply were not enough men on this planet willing to become celibate. I remember vividly a recruitment drive by the church that was global in scope during the mid 60's. Where it is difficult to ascertain just how much effect this had on the quality of people joining the priesthood, it does stand to reason that standards were lowered dramatically.
posted by
gomedome
on November 14, 2005 at 9:33 AM
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Xeno-x -- ignoring human sexual needs is at the root of this problem
other contributing factors are the "safe haven" environment that was instituted, a system of transferring the perpetrators from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, as well as the shield that is provided by the facade of propriety and indominitable power that a huge religious institution wields. For years, if anyone took the church to task for these things, they could find themselves excommunicated and facing serious societal ostracism. Where the Catholic Church claims that it has cleaned up the problem and wants to move on, I say the guilty parties should be hunted down like Nazi war criminals.
posted by
gomedome
on November 14, 2005 at 9:23 AM
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Gome, I've written on this subject before as well, and you're exactly right
Instead of being disciplined, fired or turned in for criminal activity, these men are transferred, moved around and a huge coverup has taken place over the years. The hierachy of Catholic Church is much worse than any religio/political system in existence today. In fact, it shouldn't even be called a church. It's a cult.
posted by
Ariala
on November 14, 2005 at 9:19 AM
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Ariala - thank you - I've always felt that while the perpetrators deserve
to be handed their heads, too many people are overlooking the role of the facilitators. The church hierarchy itself, that knew all too well what was going on and had implemented a system of subterfuge to protect the criminals. They can dress it up and spin it any way they want to the press today, but I have seen it with my own eyes. They had a system that allowed the vast majority of the perpetrators to escape prosecution.
posted by
gomedome
on November 14, 2005 at 9:15 AM
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i mentioned this once
Either Indenpendent Film Channel or Sundance (or HBO?) has had a story on celibacy, showing the problems associated with it. (I posted about it too)
Basically universal celibacy of priests and nuns was a device of the 14th -- 16 century -- somewhere in there -- and not practiced before that time.
The Catholic Church says that it was in force from the time of Peter, whom they say was celibate, although the gospels tell us of his mother-in-law.
There are those who can remain celibate and that's fine, but to impose such upon others who really cannot keep the vow (and of course do break it in secret) has to be an abomination.
Yes, certain monastics observed such virtually from the time of the New Testament -- it has these had to be people who could devote their lives to their faith, which if fine. Such devotion is exemplary.
However, to persist in this practice in the face of what we know now about it lack of success -- that is the most destructive behavior I can think of.
posted by
Xeno-x
on November 14, 2005 at 8:42 AM
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Gomey, excellent post. Shocking is not even a strong enough word
to describe the criminal abuse against children performed by these beasts called priests. I know you don't believe in hell, but if you did, I'm certain you would agree that a special place is reserved just for these facking bastards.
posted by
Ariala
on November 14, 2005 at 8:06 AM
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jollyjeff -we tend to think that an institution such as the catholic church
always formed it's policies with altruistic intentions when nothing could be further from the truth. The Church of Rome has for most of it's history been as corrupt as any political entity.
posted by
gomedome
on November 14, 2005 at 7:55 AM
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That's interesting about
how the church didn't want the preists and nuns to have heirs. It seems like any decision that any institution makes is always ultimately about money.
posted by
jollyjeff
on November 14, 2005 at 7:50 AM
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