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Gomedome, et al

I came back to check out the discussion, and wanted to respond to the comments directed to my earlier comment about proof of God's existence. 

MikeBrown, I totally respect where you are coming from: you don't want to take any ideology or faith at face value.  Neither did I.  It is a paradox.  How does anyone form a concept of the world? By examining evidence and filtering it through a framework, changing the framework.  I meant what I said, when I said, that I don't think that anyone will convince you by writing or by reason of the existence of God. 

Gomedome, you used the schematic of the brain and it's likelihood of being affected by electromagnetism.  That's all true, EM emissions are one factor affecting cognitive states: hallucinogens, psychotropics and emotional states affect it as well.  But, being in a highly susceptible state to EM emissions, under the influence of drugs or being exhausted and dehydrated may merely open the person up to "an altered state" , one that allows another reality to enter in, it doesn't necessarily discount the idea that that "altered or transitional" state is invalid.  Tribes of Native Americans in North, South and Central America use peyote for tribal religious ceremonies.  Whether that is "superstition" or not, depends on your perspective. 

What Moses allegedly saw in the desert, the burning bush, could easily be dismissed as a hallucination, brought on by exhaustion and dehydration in the desert heat, there are so many rational explanations for supposed phenomena like this. 

KookaLives, Ok, you described your experience: your mother's illness, a near-fatal car accident, and nothing happened, no burning bush, no apparitions, no peaceful presence.  Again, I say, words can only convey certain experiences. If I told you mine, it would still not convince you, you would have an alternate explanation, a more "rational" or reasonable explanation.  It would not change your mind.  I believe what I believe.  As Ariala said about her own experiences, conversation has it's limits. 

EbbandFlow, What can you say? 

posted by Blanche. on November 8, 2005 at 8:20 PM | link to this | reply

MandaLee - I understand that and I agree, you have never done such a thing

but we were speaking of someone who has. That is primarly where the acidic tone of the comments on this posting have come from. Someone asked for it, even after I gave them fair warning.

posted by gomedome on November 8, 2005 at 8:15 AM | link to this | reply

Kooka, I never said such a thing. I do respect you and your

beliefs, even if we have differences, they are what make us beautiful.

posted by Amanda__ on November 8, 2005 at 8:15 AM | link to this | reply

Gome, I never said anyone had a right to attack your character. I

have never done such a thing to you.

posted by Amanda__ on November 8, 2005 at 8:12 AM | link to this | reply

mandalee

So if someone shows up and starts to insult your faith you should just laugh it off and let them tell you your ideas are dull witted? Ebb came into this very much making it clear he did not want debate, but to convert. He really doesn't address the issue, favoring to show Gome and others that you have to follow his faith fully or you are damned to Hell and are just evil. Gome showed Ebb the same respect that Ebb showed him to begin with. Ebb clearly has no respect for nay beliefs that do not agree with his and so does not have true respect even for his beliefs.

posted by kooka_lives on November 8, 2005 at 7:37 AM | link to this | reply

Ebb

You really are just clueless then. You have no respect for others at all. You lack any sense of understanding. You are just so positive without a doubt that you are on the right path to 'salvation' that you are blinded to reality and are not about to give others the respect you seem to demand. Not uncommon for believers.

My path is just as correct as noble and worthy as your path. I would not be whole if I jumped paths because of the BS you put out there. Your path is not for me or Gomedome of millions of others who have found their own way that is not the same as yours.

Right there my spiritual intelligence is greater than yours, because I understand the individual needs for spiritual fulfillment that has to be personal. You seem to think all spiritual needs are going to be the same from person to person and in doing so have basically trivialized your own faith. You show that you are much more dull witted in the area of spirituality than any atheist I know of.

Right or wrong, in order to show that you have respect for your beliefs and your faith, you need to make sure you are showing such for others. You show no such respect for others and therefore show a true lack for your own.

You still have yet to show that you are not the one on the path of destruction. If that path is really so broad, then there is a slim chance that you are one of the lucky ones who just happen to have gotten it right. Just because you BELIEVE you have found the right faith (For there is no proof of this outside your own beliefs), does not mean that faith is the right one for anyone else. After all it is ego, not caring, that makes someone have the idea that everyone better follow their faith because they are the only person who gets it right.

posted by kooka_lives on November 8, 2005 at 7:32 AM | link to this | reply

MandaLee -- you're kidding right?

I can only guess that you feel that people have a right to attack one's character based on their own beliefs. It's very simple, when someone wants to pretend that they are a better person than I am and decide that they must illustrate all that is wrong with me, only because they have flipped open a bible...they get clubbed on the head for being such insufferable numbnuts. If the roles were reversed would you put up with it? I doubt it.

posted by gomedome on November 8, 2005 at 7:30 AM | link to this | reply

Gomedome, As I read through the comments I wonder

why you must be so critical instead of disagreeing respectfully. 

posted by Amanda__ on November 8, 2005 at 7:26 AM | link to this | reply

Ebb.and.Flow -- what a load of crap

Demonstrating tough love towards strangers is an oxymoron. Common courtesy dictates that a certain level of familiarity must be attained prior to pro-actively attempting to influence another person's perspectives. You can paint it any colour you like but at the end of the day you are still trying to push your beliefs on others. Provoke instead of insult?  same deal, if the level of familiarity necessary for an individual to assess this subtelty does not exist, then it doesn't matter what you call it.  

posted by gomedome on November 7, 2005 at 9:35 PM | link to this | reply

Thank you for that good word, Ariala

posted by Ebb.and.Flow on November 7, 2005 at 9:05 PM | link to this | reply

Ebb, investigating other paths doesn't mean following them...in order to

understand people and where they're coming from, I've spent time with them, reading their works and attending their meetings.  Not everyone can do this because some people are easily persuaded.  I'm not.  I'm a Christian through and through and despite the fact that I'm friend with atheists, agnostics, Buddhists and etc., my allegiance is to Christ.  Now having said that, I believe in promoting an environment of tolerance and open communication.  I believe in the separation of church and state, and I believe above all in not pushing others to see things as I do.  If this aligns me with the wrong crowd in some Christian's eyes, that's their problem, not mine.  I answer only to God and to my conscience.  You and I have never had a problem with each other, and I hope that can continue.  We do approach things and people differently.  Anyway, just wanted to clarify where I was coming from since you were quoting about "broad is the way that leads to destruction."  A sign of spiritual maturity and human respect is one that does not assume the worst of others.

posted by Ariala on November 7, 2005 at 9:02 PM | link to this | reply

Hey

just throwin in a comment

posted by calmcantey75 on November 7, 2005 at 8:56 PM | link to this | reply

gome, kooka, & ariala

Okay, I had to post another sonnet and a comment on Kooka’s most recent entry.

Here is what I have to say about what you wrote in the past half hour or so:

 

If you read carefully, all I have been doing is out of care—as for love, I personally believe that tough love is often the best, and I have been the recipient of it enough times to know that it is often needed and although not always welcomed, in retrospect, it is pretty consistently appreciated as being sincere, gomedome.  As far as insulting you goes, I wanted to provoke you more than insult you—I thought you had thicker skin!  As far as what I subscribe to not being found in a book, you might want to pick up the Bible, gomedome—and by faith (not wishful thinking) I believe one day soon you will. 

Kooka:  once again:  subtleties not synonyms is what you are missing:  do you not know or appreciate the nuances of connotations?  As far as insulting the intelligence of non-believers goes, there is a spiritual intelligence and there is a mental intelligence.  What do you think I am talking about?  There is a scripture that says the carnal man cannot discern spiritual things because they are spiritually discerned. 

 

It has been intriguing.  God bless you as you seek him sincerely.

 

As far as Ariala’s comment about exploring other paths goes, broad is the path to destruction and many are on it, but narrow is the way to salvation and few be there that find it.  And that (if memory serves) brings us full circle to gomedome’s original topic.

posted by Ebb.and.Flow on November 7, 2005 at 8:53 PM | link to this | reply

WHY SO MANY COMMENTS??? WOWSER

posted by poetjpb on November 7, 2005 at 8:52 PM | link to this | reply

kooka, no, I have no desire to go through that again. I spent five years

taking 15 minute walks twice a day (on break) with an atheist and having long conversations with him besides.  He read my books.  I read his.  Neither convinced the other. He spent a lot of time with the name calling, the mockery and typical intimidation methods used by some, but it didn't change my mind, nor my heart.  I just learned that I was more rational than he was...he was more reactive. LOL

posted by Ariala on November 7, 2005 at 8:50 PM | link to this | reply

Ariala

I agree sis. We are all going to believe as we need to believe. You really are not abel to change beliefs just by trying a new set of beliefs out. Beliefs are very much part of who you are and are going to be personal if they are real. Those who push hard to convert others are at least in my eyes, showing a weakness in their own faith by believing that faith is so easily changeable.

If you really want to learn how to be an atheist, come out for a week and I'll beat it into you.

posted by kooka_lives on November 7, 2005 at 8:45 PM | link to this | reply

Hey kooka, just like you tried to pray for God to make an appearance, I

attended a couple year's worth of atheistic meetings in town to see if I could lose God.  It never happened.  Then again, that wasn't my primary reason for going, but I learned all about rational thinking and reason.  One doesn't lose anything by investigating other paths in life.  At least that's been my experience.

posted by Ariala on November 7, 2005 at 8:32 PM | link to this | reply

dome

It looks like when I wrote that post about breaking 100 comments, I was doing comment number 101.

I don't think I have ever had a post get a hundred comments.

posted by kooka_lives on November 7, 2005 at 8:30 PM | link to this | reply

kooka_lives -- yep, it broke 100 comments but I don't know if there are

any comments except the first couple that are dealing with the post.

posted by gomedome on November 7, 2005 at 8:29 PM | link to this | reply

Ebb

I tried that faith test many, many times. In fact one of my posts here that I wrote because believers had pissed me off straight out asked God to come to me, and guess what? So far nothing. Not even when I was smoking pot did I ever come close to feeling God's presence. Although I did know some people who did and it might be part of what made me get away from the stuff and go sober.

posted by kooka_lives on November 7, 2005 at 8:27 PM | link to this | reply

kooka_lives -- I can second that

Our policies are clear enough and have been put into practice long enough. Spew and ye shall be spewed upon, speak intelligently and a person just may find it reciprocated.

posted by gomedome on November 7, 2005 at 8:27 PM | link to this | reply

so dome

Looks like you got a wining post here.
You think you gonna break a 100 comments tonight?

posted by kooka_lives on November 7, 2005 at 8:24 PM | link to this | reply

Ebb

What have I said that I have denied or ignored?

I never once misquoted you, since dim and dull are synonyms. Do you not understand that word? Also at that time I did not quote you, but merely stated that you ahd called him a dim wit when you said he was dull of wit. Do you really not understand english well enough to know what it is you are saying?

I clearly understood your poem, for the insult towards the intelligence of non believers that it was.

You do not show any kind of love by telling us we are fools and dull of wit for our beliefs. You are very misguided if you think this. You insult us greatly by making this claim that we should just decide to believe because for you it is the right thing to do.

Knowing Gomedome as I do and knowing myself, if you come in to one of our posts with the same load os BS you came into this one with, you will get the same kind of response. When you insult us as you do with your need to push your faith on us, we show that same lack of respect back at you. Not trying to speak for Gomedome here, but both of us show the same respect to others that they show to us.

posted by kooka_lives on November 7, 2005 at 8:22 PM | link to this | reply

Ebb.and.Flow -- just examine your behaviour for a minute

There's only one person referring to you as a caring, loving Christian and that is yourself. From my perspective I find nothing caring or loving about some chucklehead that writes insulting poems about me. Nor am I particularly taken with people that want to elevate their beliefs above all others and at the expense of all others. You have no idea what I believe and stand for, you only know that I don't subscribe to the gibberish you spew on people regularly. It isn't found in a book buddy, nor does wishful thinking make it so.

posted by gomedome on November 7, 2005 at 8:20 PM | link to this | reply

mikebrown

then take the faith test:  pray to God that if he is real, he will reveal himself to you.  He will, believe me.  He really will.

posted by Ebb.and.Flow on November 7, 2005 at 8:20 PM | link to this | reply

i dont think you're a pothead or a shroomhead, ebb

but i just don't agree with blind faith.  and many people HAVING blind faith certainly doesn't prove its validity.

posted by mikebrown on November 7, 2005 at 8:15 PM | link to this | reply

and you guys claim there are no spirits?

 

posted by Ebb.and.Flow on November 7, 2005 at 8:13 PM | link to this | reply

wheewww boy!

I was wondering when the pothead, shroomzoid accusations would start flying...  you guys tag-team each other often when you're dealing with sincere, loving Christians?

posted by Ebb.and.Flow on November 7, 2005 at 8:11 PM | link to this | reply

Uh oh -- I sense bi polar

The shift is evident. It took awhile but it is definately bi polar.

posted by gomedome on November 7, 2005 at 8:08 PM | link to this | reply

kooka_lives - that would be because his faith is guiding him

Now I should mention that the man lives in the magic mushroom capitol of the world which is surrounded by some of the largest pot plantations in the world. Don't know if it is relevant or not?

posted by gomedome on November 7, 2005 at 8:06 PM | link to this | reply

Kooka:

At least I admit what I said, whereas you have either denied it or ignored it.   As far as whether or not I was insulting Gomedome goes, I was merely paraphrasing King David’s psalm in the Bible:  “The fool has said in his heart there is no God.” (Psalms 14:1).  The passage you have chosen to fixate upon is in the Hebraic proverbial form, and it is admonitory.   Finally, the closing couplet of this warning sonnet contains a ray of hope and faith that someone is at work telling him of the truth of God’s love for him.  I think the amount of time and effort Godly people spend talking to him about this testifies to how my faith is being born out.  But Kooka.  Although I am disappointed in the tactics you have chosen in this dialogue, and saddened by your reluctance to admit that you unfairly misquoted me and mis-apprehended my dialogue and my poem, I nevertheless reach out to you with the same love and gentle care that I have taken in talking with gomedome, and I hope that we can remain on more conciliatory grounds in the future. 

posted by Ebb.and.Flow on November 7, 2005 at 8:02 PM | link to this | reply

Gomedome

He's using my name now as well.
His post about me was rather amusing.

Once more I am the tool of Satan and am just trying to confuse the facts by pointing out that if there really was a Satan it would make sense of him to be creating churches that claim to be following God and doing all they can to convert everyone to their beliefs in order to bring people away from God. But of course his beliefs are the true ones that follow God and there is no way his attitudes could be the result of Satan. After all those feelings he gets that sound very much like drug induced episodes, can only come from God not Satan.

posted by kooka_lives on November 7, 2005 at 7:59 PM | link to this | reply

Ebb

You really do like to rewrite the meanings of everything it seems. Math, english, science, history, all of it can be altered as needed to fit with your beliefs I guess. That does seem to be very common with believers here on Blogit.

posted by kooka_lives on November 7, 2005 at 7:55 PM | link to this | reply

kooka_lives - it's all about blogging

A person tried to re-route a little traffic to their blog and I didn't co-operate. It's either that or we have another loonicorn on our hands. Either way, a huge mistake comes in elevating drivel through acknowledgement.

posted by gomedome on November 7, 2005 at 7:55 PM | link to this | reply

yeah

if you consider nonsense, you can explain a lot of things.  i agree.

posted by mikebrown on November 7, 2005 at 7:49 PM | link to this | reply

mikebrown

Interesting you should bring up mathematics, because:

According to the Christian concept of the Trinity, Spiritually 1 = 3 and 3 = 1. 

and 1 + 1 = 1, because two shall become one flesh:  man and woman = one flesh.

Consider spiritual ramifications and you might find intriguing proportions for faith.

posted by Ebb.and.Flow on November 7, 2005 at 7:47 PM | link to this | reply

but you're right

if a lot of people believe it, it must be true.  everybody knows that.

posted by mikebrown on November 7, 2005 at 7:42 PM | link to this | reply

Ebb

You are the one trying to rewrite the meanings of word to cover what you said and try to make it look like you were not being insulting. If you are unable to admit what you write and what it means, then you are the one who needs to deal with it. All I can do is point out what you said and that it does not fit with the impression you are trying to give of how you view Gomedome here.

The poem itself was very clear as to what meaning you wish to give to that term and as to what you truly think of Gomedome. I've seen bloggers get thrown off of here for doing much less.

And then of course you admit in your comment section that the whole point of writing the post was to hopefully upset Gomedome. I wouldn't be one bit surprised if he has read it and just figured there was no point in giving you the satisfaction of a comment on it. it was a very pointless poem that just helped to show the narrow mindedness of your faith.

posted by kooka_lives on November 7, 2005 at 7:40 PM | link to this | reply

for example

if many millions of people all said that 1+1=3 because it came to them in a dream, or because they read it in an ancient book, or because their parents said that it's true, it would not mean that 1+1=3.  if there was a controlled scientific experiment that PROVED that 1+1=3...that'd be another story.

posted by mikebrown on November 7, 2005 at 7:40 PM | link to this | reply

anecdotal evidence

from a few million people is not proof either.  especially given the circumstances surrounding the anecdotes.

posted by mikebrown on November 7, 2005 at 7:37 PM | link to this | reply

mikebrown

anecdotal evidence from a few people?  Try a few million.  Who is in the fox-hole?  Or is it an ostrich-hole?

posted by Ebb.and.Flow on November 7, 2005 at 7:35 PM | link to this | reply

kooka

just because the connotations of words that have subtle differences elude you is no reason to engage in ad hominem attacks.  Now who is being childish?

posted by Ebb.and.Flow on November 7, 2005 at 7:33 PM | link to this | reply

ebb

no, anecdotal evidence from a few people is not proof.  that's not sad.  that's the scientific method.

posted by mikebrown on November 7, 2005 at 7:31 PM | link to this | reply

ebb

Dull and dim are synonyms. I know you are having a problem with english right now, but that is okay. We can clearly see by your comments here that words confuse you. Your hallucinations might be interfering with that somehow.

posted by kooka_lives on November 7, 2005 at 7:29 PM | link to this | reply

blanche

I never argued that god doesn't exist.  I already said below that it is impossible to prove or disprove the existence of god.

My arguement is against blind faith.  It is BS.  Believing completely, with absolute conviction, in something that can't be proven is ridiculous. 

Accepting god as a possible explanation (among many others) of the creation of the universe is not stupid.  Thinking that it is the only good explanation, and saying that anyone who doesn't agree with you is going to go to hell, is very stupid.

posted by mikebrown on November 7, 2005 at 7:28 PM | link to this | reply

Blanche you said a mouthful!

I too abhor religion, which is man's attempt to get to know God. God reaches out to man and says here I am children, you can start to get to know me by believing in the sacrifice Christ made on the cross and that he defeated sin and death! You can receive freedom from the wages of sin--death--through faith in Christ. Receive eternal life. But of course, I can, like you only give my life's experience. Unfortunately, to some people, human life experience doesn't count for much. Sad, really.

posted by Ebb.and.Flow on November 7, 2005 at 7:27 PM | link to this | reply

BlancheDubois

I have to fully and completely disagree with you about the foxhole comment. I have been in situations where you are suppose to find God and have not.

When my mother came close to dying I went to the chapel in the hospital, thinking maybe I would find something there. It was a nice chapel, but I got nothing. I tired to believe in something higher, but there was nothing there to believe in.

When my friend came with-in feet of driving us off the side of a cliff, I was not for one moment starting to search for a God. I was scared for my life when I saw just where we were, btu I got out of the van and was fine.

So far in my life I see just the opposite. I would think an Atheist would be reconfirming his/her beliefs in a foxhole. Maybe wishing there was something out there, but still not for one moment believing there is. All the incidents that are suppose to make you find God in my life, have only so far helped me to see that you have to reply on the actual proven aspects of life, such as family and friends. I grow farther and farther from a belief in God the more I live my life and I find I become happier and more fulfilled with my life as I do so. The more I am positive there is no God, the better life seems.

posted by kooka_lives on November 7, 2005 at 7:27 PM | link to this | reply

Kooka: read your own words: You said "dim" not "dull" ...

Ebb

If you respect his intellect, than why are you calling him dim witted in that poem you wrote about him?

You childishly insult him in one place and then here you try to suck up to him. Talk about being clueless as to how to get someone to see things your way.

Posted by kooka_lives on November 7, 2005 at 2:56 PM (permalink)

 

And by the way--"dull wit" means something entirely different from dim-wit! It means the calibre of his witticisms is somewhat less than exciting:  Anyhow--what are you trying to stir up here!  I had to start somewhere with gomedome--and he hasn't even seen fit to show me that he even read the poem, so why bring it up?

posted by Ebb.and.Flow on November 7, 2005 at 7:23 PM | link to this | reply

Gomedome, MikeBrown, Ebb and Flow, etal.

The reason that this argument will end with neither side convinced, IMHO, is that the existence of God can neither be proven nor disproven.  The most that I can offer in defense of my own belief is a history of experiences, which are meaningless to a person who merely listens to them. I have lived them. 

Religion is a different matter than faith.  It's an organized entity, usually corrupted by greed, ambition and hypocrisy. As you say, Gomedome, many people have suffered from osctracism, persecution, and unspeakable atrocities in the name of relgion.  I abhor religion. I believe in God.

posted by Blanche. on November 7, 2005 at 7:17 PM | link to this | reply

Ebb

I did not misquote your poem at all.

You said "Dull were his wits; dimly-lit his surmise."

But once more we seem to be encounter believers who rewrite the meanings of words as they please. Saying some has dull wits is the same as saying they are stupid. Unless you have some really off meaning for 'Dull were his wits' that doesn't agree with standard english.

How many believers are there out there who just do not pay attention to what it is they are saying? it is like the babble on and then when you point out what they actually said, they try to rewrite the meanings and claim that it was all just taken the wrong way.

Stop showing this lack of integrity and start admitting what you say. This is just another example as to why it is so hard to take anything believers say as truth. Too many of them have no clue as to what they are saying and are in denial about the meanings of their words.

posted by kooka_lives on November 7, 2005 at 7:17 PM | link to this | reply

the trouble is--he hasn't! Not the spiritually smart ones, anyways.

posted by Ebb.and.Flow on November 7, 2005 at 7:14 PM | link to this | reply

giskard

i didn't say that they invented the belief...i said they wanted them to believe so they would be more likely to risk their lives.  i don't think that's oversimplified.  in fact, i think that this is true today.  i am in the army, and i have to deal with a christian prayer service in my morning formation every wednesday.  in a place that i am required to be by the military...not a voluntary function. 

it's clear that someone wants the military to accept religion...the only question is why.  hmmmm.  some might say that our government is altruistic and made up of good christians, and they want us soldiers to experience god's love.

on the other hand...

posted by mikebrown on November 7, 2005 at 7:13 PM | link to this | reply

thanks for getting that in there, gome!

posted by Ebb.and.Flow on November 7, 2005 at 7:13 PM | link to this | reply

Ebb.and.Flow - you forgot to use "the smartest thing that Satan ever did

was convince people he doesn't exist".....that's a good one. Maybe we can fit it in somewhere.

posted by gomedome on November 7, 2005 at 7:10 PM | link to this | reply

they'd be better than me, too, blanche

because proving the existence of god is impossible.  i think what they are trying to convince me of is that i should have FAITH in something that can't be proven, because if i don't i'll go to hell, or if i don't i'm a bad person who is incapable of love.

but i very highly doubt that anyone will be able to do that, either.

posted by mikebrown on November 7, 2005 at 7:07 PM | link to this | reply

BlancheDubois -- you could add any form of coercion

Younger people do not know of societal pressures involving religion from just a few decades ago. People changing their surnames etc. just to find a job and other things like that.  

posted by gomedome on November 7, 2005 at 7:06 PM | link to this | reply

Who is the Father of Lies?

Well Blanche, the spirit tells me it may have been me you were waiting for, so here goes:  Mikebrown:  that same “someone” is at work today, pushing people into service for a thousand questionable causes…  we all know that such evil will ultimately fail; but all it takes for evil to triumph is for good men and women to say (and do) nothing. 

posted by Ebb.and.Flow on November 7, 2005 at 7:06 PM | link to this | reply

mikebrown

No, I do not believe so. At least, not as you put it. It's over-simplified.

In a world of limited-resources, social bonds in early tribes were very important. The bonds were more important than the 'truth'. Evolution favored those who bonded well.

In later millenia, there have been those who have exploited those natural bonds people form. But the important distinction here that I'd like to make is that the bonds are natural, the exploiters don't put them there or create them, they simply exploit them.

Anyway, it's a much deeper and more profound than can be described in a couple of paragraphs.

posted by Giskard on November 7, 2005 at 7:04 PM | link to this | reply

MikeB,

I am.  I have my bunny slippers on.    If anyone convinces you of the existence of God in a blog, they are better man than I, Gunga Din. 

posted by Blanche. on November 7, 2005 at 7:03 PM | link to this | reply

blanche - get comfy

so far, no one has given me a viable arguement against any of my comments.

of course, that must be because i am stubborn and not open to god's light.  or something.

posted by mikebrown on November 7, 2005 at 7:01 PM | link to this | reply

Gomedome,

I'd be a little suspicious of a sudden conversion by anyone who's freedom or other perks depended on expounding on their sudden change of heart. But then again, the proof is in the pudding. 

posted by Blanche. on November 7, 2005 at 6:59 PM | link to this | reply

Lensman,

I am dodging the next volley, still waiting for someone to respond to MikeBrown.  The view is much better from the stands.

posted by Blanche. on November 7, 2005 at 6:58 PM | link to this | reply

BlancheDubois -- they call them "cons" for a reason

I've always been suspicious of the term "ex-con".

posted by gomedome on November 7, 2005 at 6:57 PM | link to this | reply

Blanche

Oh-dark-30...haha...  Highly entertained I am.

(Not that I'm taking sides, or anything)

posted by Lensman on November 7, 2005 at 6:56 PM | link to this | reply

mikebrown - yep, no kidding

Brainwash em, then send them into the breach.

posted by gomedome on November 7, 2005 at 6:55 PM | link to this | reply

Gome,

I would hope that they would have a better chance of parole if they had a change of heart about their life of crime, however, that came about.

posted by Blanche. on November 7, 2005 at 6:52 PM | link to this | reply

regarding the foxholes

is it possible that a long time ago, someone would have wanted to give people a belief that would make them more willing to become soldiers and give their life for their country, thus spreading the country's empire and solidifying the rule of the upper class?

just a thought.

posted by mikebrown on November 7, 2005 at 6:51 PM | link to this | reply

gome, you might enjoy my recent entry in What the Bleep today...I like

that stuff too...

posted by Ariala on November 7, 2005 at 6:51 PM | link to this | reply

JanesOpinion -- I think you are on to something

Different types of people have decidedly different needs. And let us not forget the nuances of definition pertaining to things that all of us need. For example, I am a staunch proponent of the power of positive thinking and developing the inner discipline to will the desired outcome. Where you'd never catch me in a million years muttering things to invisible beings...some might refer to this as praying. Their version of it certainly is.  

posted by gomedome on November 7, 2005 at 6:50 PM | link to this | reply

Giskard,

You may slap me with your glove, sir, and strip off my epaulets.  We duel at oh, dark thirty by the oak grove.  I was merely trying to inject a little levity into a heated subject.   As for Veteran's Day, I salute those who have served, atheist or Episcopalian, agnostic or Athabascan.

posted by Blanche. on November 7, 2005 at 6:48 PM | link to this | reply

BlancheDubois

Evidently you are wrong.

http://www.atheistfoxholes.org/
http://www.ffrf.org/foxholes/
http://www.mindspring.com/~alutiiq/atheists-in-foxholes.html
http://www.maaf.info/

In fact, there are quite a few atheists in foxholes, risking their lives, the only life they have or will ever know, to defend our freedoms.

It's rather insulting of you to state otherwise and would appreciate an apology.

Veteran's day (in the U.S.) is November 11. I know that I'll be honoring the men and women who defend this country whether they are Christian, agnostic or atheist or whatever they choose to believe.

posted by Giskard on November 7, 2005 at 6:44 PM | link to this | reply

BlancheDubois - the prison one was easy -- a better chance for parole if

a person finds God.

posted by gomedome on November 7, 2005 at 6:44 PM | link to this | reply

Gome,

"A census taker tried to ask me that question once. I ate his liver with fava beans and a nice Chianti"  I'm in favor of red wine, but then I usually am. 

posted by Blanche. on November 7, 2005 at 6:42 PM | link to this | reply

Ebb.and.Flow - suggesting that it is found in the bible does not carry any

weight. Primitive man felt that the pineal gland or the third eye was the link to the spiritual realm. In their ignorance they did not envision that the stimulea can be fully propigated and manipulated by artificial means. To suggest in the year 2005, that some invisible entity is responsible for this stimulus, is to me, nothing more than adhering to ancient ignorance.   

posted by gomedome on November 7, 2005 at 6:41 PM | link to this | reply

gome, I know even less about wines having never drank a glass in my life.

LOL

posted by Ariala on November 7, 2005 at 6:36 PM | link to this | reply

Ariala - chardonnay with sauteed brain?

Surely the weight and texture calls for a merlot.....(yeah right, like I know what I'm talking about when it comes to wines)

posted by gomedome on November 7, 2005 at 6:34 PM | link to this | reply

Wearing my allegator hide, MikeBrown, if I may jump in for a few seconds???  Jesus mentioned, as quoted in the New Testament, that he did not come to those who are healthy, but rather, to those who need a physician.  In other words, I would posit to you that people who are searching for something more, who desire spiritual wholeness, are people who will be open to God. 

When I was a kid, I vividly remember hearing my neighbor (an avowed agnostic who loved Dolly Parton -- sorry, just had to throw that in) say that only weak people need Jesus.  Jesus was just a crutch.  And you know what?  He was sort of right.  I prefer to be self reliant, and don't like to admit that I'm needy; however, I have figured out that I cannot do it on my own.  Many people, such as yourself and Gome and Kooka (not to mention a bazillion others) are tuff dudes and have decided you don't need a Savior.  I have to accept that.

But on the flip side, today I spoke with a coworker who, after I had almost flippantly mentioned the name of Jesus (it was in passing, r/t a patient we were discussing), she said "I'd like to talk further with you about Jesus.  I used to go to church but haven't gone in years and I feel like I have such a huge hole in my heart.  Could we talk sometime?"  Did I set out to convert her?  Nope.  Is she searching?  Yup.  Does she need "the great physician?"  I think so.  Did I have ANY idea she was searching?  Nope. Did the Holy Spirit perhaps convict me to mention the name of Jesus (even if just in passing), and did He convict her to speak up and tell me about the hole in her heart?  Well . . . you be the judge.

(Sorry, Gome, to be so danged long winded.  You know me; I simply cannot help myself sometimes!)

posted by JanesOpinion on November 7, 2005 at 6:34 PM | link to this | reply

Gomedome,

I don't know.   I'm curious, is it that atheists are averse to foxholes and therefore don't venture into them, or that, more religious believers are more willing to venture into them, or that finding oneself in a foxhole has a tendency to reverse said atheism and produce a religious experience?  Or prisons, for that matter. 

posted by Blanche. on November 7, 2005 at 6:33 PM | link to this | reply

BlancheDubois -- There are no atheists in foxholes and contrary to widely

disseminated propaganda, there are precious few of them in prison. I wonder why that is?

posted by gomedome on November 7, 2005 at 6:28 PM | link to this | reply

Excuse me for barging in...I saw that brain and wondered if Hannibal might

be the chef on duty tonight?  Some lightly sauteed frontal lobe in a wok, please, and your best house chardonnay.

posted by Ariala on November 7, 2005 at 6:25 PM | link to this | reply

ebb

check this link for dictionary.com's definition of faith.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=faith

Yes, I AM stubborn when it comes to believing something that has no basis in reason. 

posted by mikebrown on November 7, 2005 at 6:25 PM | link to this | reply

Ha! Great Illustration gome!

I am not surprised at all that you--a man so apparently physically-attuned to natural phenomenon would come up with this explanation!  Of course, you might be surprised to hear that the Bible also speaks of such a phenomenon--it is called the Prince of the Power of the Air!  Can you guess who that might be? lol

posted by Ebb.and.Flow on November 7, 2005 at 6:25 PM | link to this | reply

All I can say is, "There are no atheists in foxholes" or if there are, some of them get re-ligion real quick. Same with plane crashes. Probably the advent of air travel has had something to do with a revival of faith, at least til it lands.

posted by Blanche. on November 7, 2005 at 6:23 PM | link to this | reply

Gome, ROFL because if nothing else, you certainly are thorough!

posted by JanesOpinion on November 7, 2005 at 6:21 PM | link to this | reply

mikebrown: Faith by definition

is the evidence of things hoped for; the substance of things not seen; without Faith it is impossible to please God, because there is no way to come to God unless you believe that God exists and he will reward you if you diligently seek him.  That in a nutshell is what it takes.  Have you got what it takes?  If not, try this little prayer:  God I want to believe.  Show me how, please.  But if you are stubbornly refusing to even want to believe, there is not much more that I can say at this point.

posted by Ebb.and.Flow on November 7, 2005 at 6:19 PM | link to this | reply

what are you talking about, gome?

it's god!  i know it is, because what else could it be?  never mind that this line of reasoning is a hideous logical error!  i have faith, you godless cretin!

posted by mikebrown on November 7, 2005 at 6:19 PM | link to this | reply

mikebrown - I can help you with that one

The holy spirit does in fact exist, however not as an entity but as a precursive stimulating physical event. If you look at the illustration below, the pineal gland (commonly referred to as the third eye) produces a number of unique and seemingly very real sensations when stimulated with electromagnetic energy. The stimulation need not be overly intense either, as even a minor bombardment can cause an imbalance in the human brain's ambient energy field. With natural and artificial electromagnetic fields all around us in our daily lives, and even moreso in today's modern electronic world, the type of occurance that could produce an electromagnetic imbalance is quite common. All visions, manifestations and sightings seem to have a direct correlation with this stimulus.... but try telling this to someone who wants for it to be God.

posted by gomedome on November 7, 2005 at 6:13 PM | link to this | reply

look

maybe there was a guy named jesus who had some good things to say about how people should live (be kind, be tolerant...etc)...but that's where my belief ends.  the rest of it is no more believable than a fairy tale.  at least if you look at it objectively.  i know what all the christians will say..."you need to have faith."

why don't we call faith what it is by definition:  a belief in something that has no proof.  someone that tells me to have faith is telling me to believe in something that has no proof.  how can you NOT think that's crap?  i mean, seriously.

you can't live in truth without believing in god?  god's existence can't even be proven true!  are you kidding me?

posted by mikebrown on November 7, 2005 at 6:03 PM | link to this | reply

only the spirit can do it?

it's going to be tough for something i don't believe in in the first place to convince me to believe in it. 

posted by mikebrown on November 7, 2005 at 5:52 PM | link to this | reply

Ebb.and.Flow -- this is where you lose me

When you say: "I am simply pointing at Christ as the Truth, the Way, and the Light.  His way is the way all who want to walk in love will follow.  Those who refuse to follow his way have neither truth nor true love, for the love of God is not in them.  Love is of God and he that fails to love is not of God.  It is evident from the tone of gomes last missive that he is currently resisting God's love." 

Speaking in absolutes about the deficiencies of others who will not buy into your delusion. Geez, I've never heard this brand of bullshit before, but you forgot to use "pawn of Satan". Telling people they are not of God and resisting his love just isn't complete without dragging ol Satan into it. A little ancient history lesson without your rose coloured God Fan Club glasses on, would show you how these mind controlling concepts have evolved. They are clever ruses for some people, others swallow it hook, line and sinker.  

posted by gomedome on November 7, 2005 at 5:52 PM | link to this | reply

I am intrigued

by the different misconceptions in this dialogue.  Mikebrown thinks I am trying to convince him of the existence of God.  Only the Spirit can do this.  And as Jane says this requires faith.  Gome thinks I am mentally unstable simply because I have love in my heart for all humans, not just a "concern" which is some type of PC code word for respect--it would seem now obvious that he is so locked into a worldly orientation that is oblivious to the true nature of godly Christian love.  If he stopped to think for a second, gome would realize that I don't really put much stock in trying to impress people.  (I may be a fairly good communicator, but that is a gift from God.)  Meanwhile, Kooka who claims that he reads well, but misquotes my poems and fails to comprehend the significance of my words, thinks I am trying to persuade gome into seeing things my way.  Another misconception.  I am simply pointing at Christ as the Truth, the Way, and the Light.  His way is the way all who want to walk in love will follow.  Those who refuse to follow his way have neither truth nor true love, for the love of God is not in them.  Love is of God and he that fails to love is not of God.  It is evident from the tone of gomes last missive that he is currently resisting God's love.  I am praying that you don't continue to resist it for long--time is short, and eternity is long.  If you knew what you were really doing by rejecting Christianity, you would not make so rash a choice. 

posted by Ebb.and.Flow on November 7, 2005 at 5:37 PM | link to this | reply

i just don't understand

why more people don't think that faith is a load of crap.  i mean, by definition, a faith is a belief that is not based on proof.  why would someone believe something like that with complete conviction?  there's...no...proof. 

i mean, would you buy a car if the salesman said "i'm not sure the brakes work...but i have faith that they will"?  me neither.  but many people base their whole lives on a similar belief.

i don't get it.  i mean, i know that there are some things (like the existence of a god) that can't necessarily be DISPROVED...but that does not serve as proof of their existence.  in fact, this line of thinking is a classical logical fallacy.  The fact that it cannot be proved that the universe is not designed by an Intelligent Creator does not prove that it is. Nor does the fact that it cannot be proved that the universe is designed by an Intelligent Creator prove that it isn't.

i don't necessarily discount the concept of god...but all this concept is is one of the infinite possibile explanations for something that can't be explained.  i give it NO more credit than any of the others, and less than many of them.  the big bang theory is flawed too...but i think it was a better try than intelligent creation.

posted by mikebrown on November 7, 2005 at 5:34 PM | link to this | reply

E-n-F and Gome, I'm enjoying the repartee (choosing to use that word instead of "battle" or some other more fierce description).  But I must say, Ebb, that your last comment regarding proof of the Holy Spirit to Mike Brown (et al) will probably be shredded to bits.  These guys would likely not believe in the veracity of Scriptures if God himself stood in front of them.  (Would likely call Him delusional and send Him into a 72 hour locked down psych unit). 

So find yourself some allegator hide (i.e. something thick) and stick with the dialogue!

And Mike, my answer to your question is that understanding of the Holy Spirit requires faith.  And that, of course, means little to an agnostic or atheist but is priceless and beyond compare to many a Christian.

posted by JanesOpinion on November 7, 2005 at 5:19 PM | link to this | reply

thats ok for you

but the fact that you see things and hear voices that give you advice doesn't really convince ME to believe in god.

posted by mikebrown on November 7, 2005 at 5:14 PM | link to this | reply

Ebb.and.Flow -- I'm just getting back to my computer and catching up

I didn't realize that you had severe mental problems and I am sorry for picking on you. At least you must have some kind of problem if you can develop "genuine concern" for an online stranger. Either that or you are completely full of shit, which just makes you one more Christian disciple wannabe, saying and doing the right things to make yourself believe and/or win the approval of others.

This all started today because you assumed that I would acknowledge your invisible friends, the spiritual realm. Unfortunately, receiving no for an answer is not good enough for you....You have to construe my rational thinking into my having a character deficiency. Nice try but that in a nutshell illustrates my beef with your kind. The thought of spending eternity with someone such as this could not possibly be a better alternative than hell.

......but then one would have to buy into such bunk.   

posted by gomedome on November 7, 2005 at 5:10 PM | link to this | reply

mikebrown

Okay here are four sound reasons for my belief in the existence of the spiritual realm:

1)      Spiritual forces have manifested themselves to me.

2)      When I praise and worship God truthfully, I can physically feel his spirit within me.  It gives me great joy.  This is a source of strength that sustains me.

3)      When I ask for a word of affirmation or I have a need for direction, the spirit of God either speaks to my heart directly or sometimes gives me a particular scripture to look up, and the scripture is invariably applicable to my concerns.

4)      You asked, and I responded.  This in itself is an affirmation of the spiritual truth that the Bible reveals:  Ask and it shall be given to you; seek and you shall find.

posted by Ebb.and.Flow on November 7, 2005 at 5:04 PM | link to this | reply

Question for all:

What makes you so sure that God and the spiritual realm exist?  And don't say because the Bible says so.  I want actual reasoning. 

posted by mikebrown on November 7, 2005 at 4:11 PM | link to this | reply

Kooka

If you actually read carefully what I said you would know that I simply commented that I didn't take it lightly.  What this really means is that it weighs heavy on my heart.  Read to understand instead of assuming you know based on a cursory impression.  And wit is not the same as intellect either.

posted by Ebb.and.Flow on November 7, 2005 at 3:05 PM | link to this | reply

Ebb

If you respect his intellect, than why are you calling him dim witted in that poem you wrote about him?

You childishly insult him in one place and then here you try to suck up to him. Talk about being clueless as to how to get someone to see things your way.

posted by kooka_lives on November 7, 2005 at 2:56 PM | link to this | reply

Delusion? Since your opinion is that I am deluded in acknowledging

the existence of the spirit realm, I would have to say that you are either too carnally-minded to recognize the truth of this realm or you are allowing your massive intellect to eclipse your heart's need for spiritual sustenance.  One important consideration you ought to reflect upon is whether or not you being deluded about the nature of God and about your relationship to him.  Do you even believe he exists?  I am asking sincerely out of a genuine concern.  Not because I am trying to prove that I am superior because I have arrived.  We are all in process.  I appreciate your humor and your intellectual rapacity; it is elixir of a rapacious flow!  Oh and of course your intellectual capacity is not something I take lightly, either.  I am just trying to get you to turn on that spiritual light switch on the wall in the living room of your heart so that we can spend eternity together in heaven!  Come on down gome!  Christ is calling.

posted by Ebb.and.Flow on November 7, 2005 at 2:51 PM | link to this | reply

Ebb.and.Flow -- don't confuse yourself -- the existence of the spirit world

is part of your delusion, not mine. I was referring to the very human powers influencing the viral growth of the church over history.  

posted by gomedome on November 7, 2005 at 2:30 PM | link to this | reply

gomedome you surprise me.

Just yesterday you were chastising me for associating those who refuse to accept they are blind to Christian spiritual truth with the forces of darkness which dominate the world; now you are saying the forces which dominate the world are responsible for maintaining the "blind faith" status quo.  You appear to be trying to have your cake and eat it too. 

posted by Ebb.and.Flow on November 7, 2005 at 2:24 PM | link to this | reply

mikebrown - that's an interesting question in itself

We can only surmise that the tendency for mankind to blind themselves to reason in favour of faith, has been artificially kept on life support. When one considers that blind faith is easily the most important element needed to control the masses, then it does stand to reason that those whom it self serves would not let it die.

posted by gomedome on November 7, 2005 at 12:16 PM | link to this | reply

ive already argued this one, so

allow me to just profess my continued awe at the tendency for people to ignore reason in favor of blind faith.  i wonder why people's brains are wired that way?  i mean, if you think of it in terms of natural selection...how did this severely flawed line of thinking survive long enough to be in our gene pool? 

 

posted by mikebrown on November 7, 2005 at 10:39 AM | link to this | reply

jollyjeff - exactly -- as soon as an individual begins outlining the one

true path to heaven with such exclusivity they must begin re-defining their God. But most don't make this connection. They can say that they are following the one true word of an all powerful and all merciful God, while excluding countless billions of people, for generation after generation from heaven....and all in the same breath. Some mercy and ultimately impotent if this being cannot do anything to correct the situation. Yet the theme of extreme exclusivity is comically universal.

posted by gomedome on November 7, 2005 at 10:18 AM | link to this | reply

According to most religions

a heck of a lot of people are on their way to hell. But I wonder, why would a loving God send anyone to hell?

posted by jollyjeff on November 7, 2005 at 10:07 AM | link to this | reply

go to my BLIND FAITH and leave a link.
I don't mind.
love your boppin' Christians game.

posted by Xeno-x on November 7, 2005 at 8:31 AM | link to this | reply

Xeno-x -- I love it - sound like an interesting blog

Sounds like good promotion for my new arcade game: "Bopping Christians"

 

posted by gomedome on November 7, 2005 at 7:58 AM | link to this | reply

HOORAY!!!!

And her I thought Blogit was getting boring!!!
EbbnFlow -- thank you!!!!
You're filling a void that NOPEACE seems to have left since he has "taken a vacation" from commenting lately.
And here I thought Gomey was going to escape unscathed.
You just inspired a post.
The seige of Gomedome
or something like that.

posted by Xeno-x on November 7, 2005 at 7:34 AM | link to this | reply

Ebb.and.Flow - zeitgeist may be an innapropriate word choice

Inherent in it's use is the implication of adopting a prevailing mindset while ignoring the spirits and themes of previous generations. That's a fairly deep assessment of someone you have just met online. It also misses the mark by a mile. As for the coat of many colours...yet another assessment wrought with assumption. The reality is that whether you like it or not, you have run into someone who is not buying what you are selling.  Civil discourse is always welcome, we can all learn something from everyone but know that if I am to be bombarded with bible gobbly goop, guilty parties get a whap on the head with a big wooden mallet.

posted by gomedome on November 7, 2005 at 6:38 AM | link to this | reply

I appreciate the sophistication and erudition you bring to the table!

But I assure you that my intellectual subscription is intact--it has true geist!  Perhaps not the zeitgeist that you are so earnest to associate yourself with, but you do acknowledge geist, don't you?  Or has the cosmopolitan edge worn off your coat of many colours?  I relish further discussions with you.  I will not bait you further.  Please accept my sincere and earnest apologies if I have aggravated you.  My intention is simply to make Christianity intellectually palatable.  I hear and acknowledge your frustration with vacuous Christianity.  But don't throw the baby out just because the bathwater looks like it's syrupy pablum. 

posted by Ebb.and.Flow on November 6, 2005 at 9:48 PM | link to this | reply

Hmmm

Calling Card Lensman looked in Hmm....lots of Canadians on this page.  Not that I'm taking sides.  Just sitting up in the cheap seats with my binos.

posted by Lensman on November 6, 2005 at 9:40 PM | link to this | reply

Ebb.and.Flow -- look buddy -- enough with demonstrating for us how fresh

and sparkly clean your brainwashing is. Good for you, your brain has become vaccuous because you are able to subscribe to having invisible friends. Sorry but I have no intention of dumbing it down to join you in your manufactured and unrealistic world.  

posted by gomedome on November 6, 2005 at 9:36 PM | link to this | reply

The definition of God

Actually gomedome, I spent the past ten years convinced God was incompetent.  He proved me wrong!  That’s why I’m here encouraging you.  He is a gracious, omnipotent God whose love is becoming more abundantly evident every day.  I can only pray that he will begin to show you by the things that he is doing in the lives of so many people throughout the world—not just the North American continent—that he loves all the people of the world.  He is at work everywhere.  I am aware that many people follow other religions because they are forced to by tradition and/or government.  This just proves my point that there are evil forces at work.  Would you suggest that God should just appear miraculously and coerce these evil forces into capitulating to his will?  That would mean he would have to change his modus operandi.  Maybe you are unclear about how he defines himself:  He is a spirit.  He desires those who seek him worship him in spirit and in truth.  His word admonishes us to test the spirits.  Not every spirit that is in the world is of God.   He calls us by his spirit.  I trust his spirit is speaking to you even as you are reading these words and if you are honest, you will acknowledge their truth.

posted by Ebb.and.Flow on November 6, 2005 at 9:31 PM | link to this | reply

Hoo Boy ....another full fledged bible lobotomy and sadly, one that has

been performed north of the 49th. You may want to do yourself a favour there ...and seek out like minded people on this site. I refuse to support your delusion, I won't even be kind about it and you will receive nothing but grief from me if you insist on spewing mindless bible drivel in my direction. That's the point I have come to in life, I don't put up with it anymore...you have been warned.

posted by gomedome on November 6, 2005 at 9:30 PM | link to this | reply

Ebb

Review the numerous dispoofs of 'Pascal's wager'.

Any god that expects belief in logical fallacies certainly cannot be considered a god of truth.

There may be compelling arguments for a belief in God but that is most certainly not one of them.

posted by Giskard on November 6, 2005 at 9:26 PM | link to this | reply

Giskard:

That might appear to be coercion to someone who is allowing the forces of spiritual darkness to shape his perceptions:  In fact, such a definition is the epitome of nefarious deception.  God simply makes a fantastic promise to love and care for all who sincerely seek him, and then he provides a simple, straightforward means by which they may do that:  Accepting the free gift of salvation through Christ.  Of course if you reject that gift, you are saying God has not made himself freely available to you through this means.  Why would you reject this?  You are failing to acknowledge that there are forces of evil in this world that aim to blind you to the truth of God’s will as manifested through his Holy Word and amplified by his Holy Spirit, if you have confessed that you are a sinner in need of repentance, accepted Christ’s redeeming work on the cross, and proclaim with boldness and enthusiasm that he is your Lord.  Don’t let those forces of darkness mislead you any longer.  This is the acceptable year of the Lord.  Accept his free gift of salvation.

posted by Ebb.and.Flow on November 6, 2005 at 9:16 PM | link to this | reply

Ebb.and.Flow -- seriously now -- quit fooling around

You don't actually buy this stuff do you? Free will is the reason that billions of people follow other religions? I can tell that you have never set foot off of the North American continent if you think that free will has anything to do with why the majority of people follow other religions. It all sort of makes your God one cruel SOB if he only allows a minority of people hear and receive his one true word, or maybe he is just incompetent. Either way he would have to be redefined if what you say is true. .   

posted by gomedome on November 6, 2005 at 9:14 PM | link to this | reply

Sorry Ebb

That's not free will; that's coercion.

posted by Giskard on November 6, 2005 at 9:00 PM | link to this | reply

Gomedome

Seriously.  There is a straight answer.  It's called free will.  God's Word is a sharp two-edged sword.  It cuts dividing asunder the intents of the heart.  All humans have a chance to respond by accepting Christ or rejecting him.  God continues to reach out via his Spirit.  But if people persist in choosing to follow man-made religions, and deny that Christ came in the flesh, was born of the Spirit of God, was in fact the son of God, was crucified, lay dead for three days, was then resurrected by the power of God, appeared to his disciples, commanded that they preach the gospel unto all nations, then ascended into heaven where he currently sits at the right hand of God praying for all people, and finally gives all believers the Holy Spirit to convince them of sin and guide them into all truth concerning his perfect will for their lives--if I say people persist in denying this, they must face the unpleasant consequences of rejection of God and of his son, Jesus.  As many as accept Christ, they are joint-heirs with Jesus of all of God's riches according to glory.  Don't delay.  Accept Christ as your personal saviour today.

posted by Ebb.and.Flow on November 6, 2005 at 8:30 PM | link to this | reply

Ebb.and.Flow -- this is extremely hilarious but I cannot tell if you are

serious or not?

If you are serious then it is even funnier than I originally thought. The all merciful God allows billions upon billions of people to follow false, man made religions, thereby denying them a chance at salvation? Can you say things such as this with a straight face? 

posted by gomedome on November 6, 2005 at 8:11 PM | link to this | reply

Hey Gome--take this to the dome--and let it penetrate your heart.

I am not saying Christianity is superior to other religions visa viz the caretaking of the planet.  Humans were initially entrusted to do this, but we have failed miserably--I don't think you can blame Christians for this though--the love of money is, according to the Christian Bible, the root of all evil.  This love of money has led greedy "original" sinners to rape the planet for years.  But the key point is that the Christian Bible also says that God who is the original creator of the heavans and earth will destroy them and make a new heaven and a new earth.  Obviously he knew Satan would mislead man to corrupt things so totally that he would have to restore and re-create the world and the heavens.  Another key point is that Christ is the only mediator between man and God--the only means by which we may come to know him.  If you really want to know God, you won't waste the time with man-made religions that try to be so wise; God's word says the wisdom of this world is foolishness and he will confound it (bring it to nothing); humble yourself under the mighty hand of God and he will exalt you in due time.  But if you exalt yourself, God will humble you. 

posted by Ebb.and.Flow on November 6, 2005 at 7:36 PM | link to this | reply