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although perfection is a human idea
the passage where the Greek word is "mature" is "be ye therefore perfect, as your Father in Heaven is perfect."
if Adam was created Perfect, as "our Father in Heaven is" then Adam would have inherited the perfection of God, thus not sinned.
Or
is God's "perfection" different from Adam's "perfection"?
posted by
Xeno-x
on October 31, 2005 at 10:52 AM
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Janes
Well there is not one verse that clearly says this. It is the Bible itself as a whole that makes this very clear. God created man, or do you wish to dispute that? Man is flawed, or do you wish to dispute that as well?
If Adam and Eve were not flawed than how is that they were ticked? They were so perfect that it was easy for the serpent to go and get them to sin? Come on that is not perfection, which will be the main focus of the post I am going to write for you.
I blame God for nothing at all. It is the Bible it self that makes it clear that God is the big screw up and we are paying for his mistakes and his ego issues with the fat that he is unable to grow up and get over this grudge that was caused by one person pissing him off because they did not follow one rule that really made no sense to begin with and was obviously a set up for that man to fail at as it was.
Original sin is about the worst religious concept ever and it just does not work if you wish to make anyone believe God is so perfect and wonderful. Just the idea of Original sin shows God to be a horrible, horrible being. Such concepts makes me feel much surer in my non-belief.
posted by
kooka_lives
on October 31, 2005 at 10:44 AM
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NOPEACE
So you don't believe in the idea of original sin? Interesting.
I plan to write a full post today to show just how foolish and ignorant your idea there is that man was at any point created perfect if one is to believe the Bible. My father touched on that it would seem, but I think it needs a full post.
So a baby is born without sin, which means it should be viewed as a evil thing for that child to be allowed to reach a point where it gains sin. So now we are defending all those mothers who kill their children before they are allowed to become sinners and be denied the chance to get into Heaven.
So it is not God's fault that he put the tree in the garden of Eden and told Adam and Eve not to eat form it, knowing full well (Unless God is not omnipotent) that Adam and Eve would end up eating from the tree. SO parents should not be held accountable if they say leave the stove on and then go take a bath as their children are allowed to play in the kitchen because the parent has told them not to play with the stove. It is then the kids fault that they played with the stove, and not the parents fault for leaving the stove on to begin with. I won't follow such logic in my life, I guess I am just a much better parent than God could ever hope to be. I have yet to figure out how anyone defends God as not being guilty. He plays games with us and tries to make it sounds like it is all us, when in fact it is very much his fault if one is to believe what is written in the Bible. Trust me, my post today will try to make that clear even to those lie you who just can not handle logic at all.
posted by
kooka_lives
on October 31, 2005 at 10:37 AM
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janeybaby again
you yourself pointed out where we are created flwed.
we all sin, from the moment of our birth -- because of Adam's sin, we inherit that "original sin" -- however, see the previous comment.
It is a wonder how a god that creates people flawed would then condemn his creation.
so we suffer for one sin of one man?
posted by
Xeno-x
on October 31, 2005 at 8:30 AM
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janey baby
if god had created adam and eve perfect wqouldn't it follow that they would not have sinned?
it is said that Jesus was created perfect.
"Tempted in all ways as we are, yet without sin."
so how come one perfect person sinned and another didn't?
NOPEACE
regarding the Law -- that is done away with (read the Romans passages again, etc.) -- We are "dead to the Law" through Christ and baptism -- the law and our sins were buried with the immersion in the water and then we are resurrected to a new, sinless life.
I repeat my statement regarding the young richman who asked what he would need to do to inherit eternal life -- he had kept the Commandments -- hey -- that's easy to do -- very easy (even within the pharisaical boundaries of how far to travel, how much to carry [a mouthful], etc.) anyone can worship god, keep the Sabbath (Saturday? Sunday?) remain true to a spouse, not kill, not steal, honor their parents, not "bear false witness", covet, etc. -- so what's there to forgive? The "sin" is in what you do to and for others, which is made pretty plain in the New Testament -- it's in attitude (see the beatitudes). And sin -- let's get it straight -- is "missing the mark" -- this implies lack of practice and automatic forgiveness -- hey! here's the issue isn't it? -- forgiveness -- it's automatic -- it's the "Gift of god" -- we don't have to do anything to earn it -- you give your kids a gift even when they've been not so good kids (or so I would hope) -- so Kooka, my son, you are somewhat wrong about this whole thing -- but's that's not your fault -- it's others' picture of "god" that gives you the impression you get -- but the idea is that a person is forgiven because the person is given time to understand what is happening -- and the thing is this "sin" is something that can be rectified.
Everyone of us continually sins, even when we don't know it. The process is to learn to recognize it. The New Testament gives us some good guidelines (the Golden Rule, Sermon on the Mount, I Cor. 13, I John 3). The idea is to "reconsider", that is, look at what we are doing, then "change". Discover where we have not "hit the bullseye" and learn how to hit it better. And this is always an incomplete and imperfect process (KJV renders a greek word, "Mature" as "perfect"), thus we are always forgiven.
Then, with this in mind, we have to be grateful -- then we correct our flaws, and of course we never correct them all, and, since, as the New Testament tells us, this "sin" is truly against other persons, as Kooka states, this is where we should be asking forgiveness, since we are already forgiven by "god".
So don't be scribes, guys, and lay down the Law, because if you are truly Christians, then you know that we are "dead to the Law".
posted by
Xeno-x
on October 31, 2005 at 8:25 AM
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Back at you, NOPEACE.
Very solid refutation of a strange blog.
And Kooka, please study your Bible and let me know where it says that God created us flawed.
"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned . . . . For if the many died by the trespass of the one man [Adam], how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!" (Romans 5).
posted by
JanesOpinion
on October 30, 2005 at 7:03 PM
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Kooka,
You are asking God to forgive you for the actions and choices that you make that are in conflict with the laws he has passed on to us as given in the bible. You are not asking God for forgiveness for being born. A baby that is born in this world is not a sinner, it is however born into a world that is corrupted of sin. No one has to ask forgiveness for being born. The bible says that to have a child is a blessing and a gift from God. What the child who grows up does have to ask Gods forgiveness of is for the choices and actions that they make that are in conflict with God's law.
posted by
NOPEACE
on October 30, 2005 at 11:24 AM
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JanesOpininon
Great comment Jane, I completely agree with you. No where in the bible does it say that God created man flawed, actually it states to opposite, that we were created perfect in his image.
posted by
NOPEACE
on October 30, 2005 at 11:21 AM
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Are you shoveling out a load of CR*P just to get a rise out of people?
Or do you REALLY believe this?
"If you ask to be forgiven because you are flawed, well if you really believe the Bible and such, then that is really God's fault. He created man flawed to begin with. God is the one who made you flawed and a sinner, he openly admits to this in the Bible. Is you ask for God to forgive you for being a flawed sinner, then you are asking God to forgive you for his actions, not really your own."
God did not originally create Adam and Eve as flawed people. He created them perfect, but with free will. They blew it and have passed down an imperfect and sinful nature to every individual since. So show me where in the Bible it says that God is the one who made us flawed?
How convenient it is to blame God for all of the problems we face in life. And then to say that God should ask for MY forgiveness for HIS actions. The terrible difficulties people face in life are directly correlated with bad choices, even bad choices from a few generations up the line, and a very imperfect humanity.
So help me out here, Kooka. Do you truly believe everything you write?
posted by
JanesOpinion
on October 29, 2005 at 5:09 PM
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original sin
is not a "christian" idea, it was taken from the greeks who came to the conclusion that all living things are theives of the elements. From the time we are born, we take air, water, fire for warmth and cooking food, plants and animals to eat and break the skin of the earth to grow plants or build shelter. We do this without asking (yeah, I know, it's silly) but for this "crime" we receive the death sentence as payment of our "sin."
posted by
freerain
on October 29, 2005 at 9:03 AM
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that's right
posted by
Xeno-x
on October 29, 2005 at 8:17 AM
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