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well their brand of God is not so merciful.
other gods are.
besides the god Jesus spoke about is pretty well neutral in things -- he makes his rain to fall and his sun to shine on the righteious and unrighteous alike.
at least you know what to expect -- no favoritism.
on the Matthew passage -- so I'm going off on a path that our host here doesn't believe in -- sorry -- when we think of those that Jesus tells, away into the outer darkness and all that -- this isn't Hell -- it's a state of alienation -- like the Gehenna Fire -- which is the trash heap -- dereliction -- this to me hints at reincarnation -- that is, those who cannot learn the first time are destined to repeat the whole kaschmiel until they do.
but still -- doesn't matter -- we can make this life better for everyone no matter what we believe -- and that's the ultimate. do the best we can do.
posted by
Xeno-x
on October 26, 2005 at 1:59 PM
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ariel70 - exactly, such a notion immediately contradicts the definition
of God as being all merciful. Only all merciful if we worship and believe in him? To me this is a concept that shouldn't even survive the laugh test in this day and age.
posted by
gomedome
on October 26, 2005 at 9:29 AM
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Gome
My feeling exactly. Even we infinitely cruel humans, who have been shown to be infinitely ingenious in devising ways to torture our fellows, would balk at sentencing them to eternal torment.
So, how can one not ask " What sort of God is this?"
posted by
ariel70
on October 26, 2005 at 9:20 AM
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MandaLee -- I really like to hear about the "scientific proof" that Jesus
has risen. As for only Jesus being the one true path to heaven, all I can say is that your God is one cruel being if he allows so many people (currently 65% of the world's populace) to live their entire lives following another path.....poor smucks.
posted by
gomedome
on October 26, 2005 at 9:16 AM
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Gome, The Bible says no one gets to the Father except through
Jesus, not Allah.
I believe this because Jesus is risen.
Thanks for your thoughts. It is clear you are insightful and intelligent.
However, I respectfully disagree. My faith is in a risen Savior. Jesus is the only God where there is scientific proof that He rose from the dead.
Allah can't say that, no disrespect intended.
posted by
Amanda__
on October 26, 2005 at 8:51 AM
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Xeno-x - again, quite nicely, you outline a point that people don't seem
able to or want to comprehend.
posted by
gomedome
on October 26, 2005 at 8:32 AM
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nopeace
answer this honestly
wouldn't you rather live honestly than dishonestly?
if you truly don't believein god, thenyou shouldn't at all turnthe other way and begin bleieving in god when you really don't.
I've quoted the passage in Matthew where Jesus does NOT give belief in god as a criterion for evading the "hell-fire"; rather he says that those that "visited inu prison" "fed the hungry" etc., would be welcomed into "my Father's Kingdom", where those who come to him and say they are religious and proclaiming their righteousness are consigned to the fire -- be cause they haven't done such.
The contrast is obvious -- non-believers whose actions are "Christ-like" will receive a reward; whereas believers whose actions are not will not.
posted by
Xeno-x
on October 26, 2005 at 8:21 AM
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avant-garde - yep ..and they haven't caught on yet that I do not have a
simular sales pitch.
posted by
gomedome
on October 26, 2005 at 8:16 AM
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gomedome
I see that it is usually the same ones who come here over and over to try to convince you of something.
posted by
avant-garde
on October 26, 2005 at 7:59 AM
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NOPEACE --- how incredibly lame -- the old "safe bet" proposal
Using the definition of your God as all knowing, do you think that if he existed, he would not be able to discern that I am pretending to believe in him? ..using more of the same definition, would an all loving God condemn an individual simply because he doubted his existence? You can't have it both ways. You cannot define your God as all knowing and all loving, then begin assigning attributes of vanity and naievete to him.
posted by
gomedome
on October 26, 2005 at 7:47 AM
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Gome,
Just like Xeno, you bounce around wanting your questions to be answered (which i do answer) but you never answer mine.
If I die believing in GOD and there is no GOD, what have I lost or risked?
If you die believing there is NO GOD and there turns out to be in fact a GOD, what have you lost or risked?
Wouldn't human logic and intellect suggest that YOU have more at risk and more to lose that me?
Can you answer those questions?
posted by
NOPEACE
on October 26, 2005 at 7:32 AM
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Religous intolerance or intolerance of religion?
Death to all fanatics is what I say.
Oh shit.
I just had to shoot myself.......
posted by
longjohnjohn
on October 26, 2005 at 6:29 AM
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mikebrown - this was my favourite recent blog that really got the God Squad
wound up. So much so that some spun into orbit. Best fun I have had in awhile.
CLICK HERE
posted by
gomedome
on October 25, 2005 at 8:31 PM
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good point
perhaps a voice of reason can at least slow the craze down a bit. sometimes fighting a losing battle is still worth it.
posted by
mikebrown
on October 25, 2005 at 8:00 PM
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mikebrown - thank you and you make some valid points
I have to agree that blind faith can be dangerous. That is one of my motivating factors in continuously spewing this acidic commentary. Another factor is learning the English language properly for the first time in my life. I began with French as my native tongue, the nuns tried to switch me over to Latin before I cracked into English so getting it all straight in 3 languages at an early age was a challenge. I figured the nuns were retards for trying to teach little children Latin as a base, or a first language in North America. Like who speaks Latin, know anybody? I only know the retarded nuns, so I fugured they were trying to capture young children in some sort of dependancy trip. Once you got past the nuns, then it was time to look out for diddling priest. They were champion diddlers, enough so that many a small boy took up martial arts in case he had to kill one of the fuckers with his bare hands. Lots of good kick boxers where I come from.
So why write a blog like this? It's an easy answer. There is no battle to be won, it is long lost. Mankind has re-asserted his will that there be a God of some sort, may the loudest and best salesmen win. If however, someone who feels that he represents a rational datum line, does not add some doubt to their certainty, the collective delusion grows. It's tough enough living in a country with these bible thumping numbnuts running around, can you imagine what exponentially more of them would be like?
So I must say something.
posted by
gomedome
on October 25, 2005 at 7:36 PM
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by the way
great job on the blog. this is, by a large margin, my favorite blog on this site.
posted by
mikebrown
on October 25, 2005 at 6:59 PM
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gomedome
i admire your diligence, but i wonder if you're fighting a losing battle. people with strong faiths--no matter how irrational--do not often change them, even with OVERWHELMING logical evidence against them.
i was just reading a study done on this very subject...people with strong faiths in suicide cults to "alternative" medicine have SUCH strong faith in their doings that they will use any number of logical fallacies (especially cognitive dissonance) to support them...even when stone cold evidence against them is staring them right in the face. i don't know why so many people's minds are wired like this, but there it is.
good luck, man, but i'm not sure the strong believers will be dissuaded.
another thing i wonder...should we be dissuading them at all? many people will say that we shouldn't be arguing about this and are just wasting our breath.
i really loathe pointless arguement, but i don't think this arguement is pointless. for one thing, blind faith can be dangerous. just look at suicide cults. these people weren't crazy or weird people...they were people just like you and me who were taken in by a very charismatic leader and a desire to belong to a group (sound familiar?). i'm not saying that belief in the myths of christianity, or any other religion, is necessarily fatal...but it is often equally irrational, as much as people don't want to admit it.
religions have some good traits...a lot of the philosophy, like tolerance and kindness toward others is really great stuff...but people need to let go of the blind faith in the mythology. i really don't think it's healthy. and i think this arguement is also a good vessel for making an effort to point out the fatal errors in many people's reasoning.
again, good luck.
but, if i may say this, you maybe COULD be a bit less hostile in your arguements (i.e. the christian mole hitting). i mean, i know it was supposed to be funny (and it was), but there's enough hostility in the world, right?
posted by
mikebrown
on October 25, 2005 at 6:56 PM
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Xeno-x - right on ... it's the only philosophy that is all inclusive
a point that too many do not see.
posted by
gomedome
on October 25, 2005 at 4:33 PM
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Tapsel-T - I know it's complicated but try to keep the numbers straight
before accusing someone of talking out of both sides of their mouths. 1% is a historical tally, the percentage is much greater today. You bridged the conversation from Born Agains to include all believers by contending that non believers could possibly be responsible for the congregational divisiveness we see in the world today.
posted by
gomedome
on October 25, 2005 at 4:29 PM
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tapsel
there is but one belief -- that is in the sanctity of the moment and the other people with whom we come in contact.
all religions and those who have no religion can believe in that.
posted by
Xeno-x
on October 25, 2005 at 3:12 PM
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the Apostle Paul is referring back to the Jewish way of sacrifice -- and the Passover and Atonement rituals of sacrifice.
Because Jews thought and because Greeks and others thought that the sacrificing of animals was propitiation for sins, then Paul had to replace this with the sacrifice of the "Lamb of God", so that people would move away from the sacrifice of animals.
it was a cycle
human sacrifice in the beginning, then animal sacrifice instead, then the "Christ" sacrifice.
Human perception of sin and expunging of such then changed and evolved.
The new propitiation is "a contrite heart" this is greater than all sacrifices. The willingness to have a spirit of sacrifice toward one's fellow -- those with whom one comes in contact -- that is the new "spilling of blood".
posted by
Xeno-x
on October 25, 2005 at 3:10 PM
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Tapsel
I'm afraid that I don't understand your last comment, and I think we must agree to disagree in a spirit of respect and amity.
posted by
ariel70
on October 25, 2005 at 3:08 PM
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Gomedome, sorry that I have taken up all of your comment space today. I will be going to my own place now. If you want me for anything further, you may contact me at Perplexities or at Goodbye, Goodbye The Garden. Nice talking with you.
posted by
TAPS.
on October 25, 2005 at 3:07 PM
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xeno-x, to believe all is to believe nothing.
posted by
TAPS.
on October 25, 2005 at 3:05 PM
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Ariel, God's terms are that "without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin." and it is "the blood of Jesus Christ that cleanses from all sin." Venial sin is sin and God is perfect and "cannot look upon sin."
posted by
TAPS.
on October 25, 2005 at 3:03 PM
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it's in the bible
we all sin
and yet
none sin.
nobody should worry .
if we need to confess, we should be confessing to those whom we have wronged -- then make things right and wrong them no more.
everybody who lives this way lives Salvation whether Christian or Buddhist, believer or nonbeliever, Deist or Atheist.
posted by
Xeno-x
on October 25, 2005 at 3:03 PM
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Tapsel
On the contrary, it is on God's terms.
The concept of sin, and the degree of gravity of sin, was not man-made, but as Christians believe, was defined by God, and I repeat that I have committed very few, and those venial sins.
As to pride, I am too old, too wise, and too experienced to feel pride.
Please believe that I do not argue with you to insult either you or your religion, but do so from a genuine spirit of enquiry
posted by
ariel70
on October 25, 2005 at 2:59 PM
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Ariel you are wanting forgiveness on your own terms. That is pride speaking. It is the old human desire to make oneself equal to God.
posted by
TAPS.
on October 25, 2005 at 2:52 PM
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Gome
I knew that Canadian law superseded sharia and other law, but you're right ; none of these arbitration bodies should have had any legal standing whatsoever.
It was fatuous to permit then to become anything but ad hoc bodies, totally without the national law.
posted by
ariel70
on October 25, 2005 at 2:50 PM
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Gomedome, it seems that you speak out of both sides of your mouth at the same time. You speak of there only being 1% who are "born again" believers. Now you say there are only 10% who are non-believers. What are the other 89%?
posted by
TAPS.
on October 25, 2005 at 2:49 PM
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ariel70 -- you've missed the point, there is only one law
Canadian law, to which arbitration of any form is subjegated to. There is an argument for eliminating all forms of arbitration altogether however, which would be the only just thing to do.
posted by
gomedome
on October 25, 2005 at 2:47 PM
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Tapsel-T -- ha ha ha ha ha ha ha what, all 10% of them?
Too funny. There are over 30,000 Christian denominations world wide. It isn't people that do not belive in God that have made them perpetually divide amongst themselves. Let alone the advancement of Chrisitanity as the one true word excluding all those of other faiths and beliefs. Nice try, but you believers have to look in the mirror on that one.
posted by
gomedome
on October 25, 2005 at 2:44 PM
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Gome
Doubtless the motives were benign, but many malign results may, and probably will, stem from this perilous course. There should be but one law, under which all are equal
posted by
ariel70
on October 25, 2005 at 2:43 PM
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ariel70 - it's a done deal, but appreciate that Sharia law is only being
recognized as another form of arbitration in civil cases, amongst many already existing forms. This is the subtle point that news reports seem to overlook. Existing already are the long held traditional Jewish arbitrations, Native American sentencing circles, as well as several other forms of commercial, religious and cultural arbitration. All parties involved must do so voluntarily, decisions handed down are subjected to court scrutiny to be certain that no Canadian laws are contravened and the best part is that those who choose arbitration pay all additional court costs. The reality is that Canada has a very large Moslem segment of it's populace. We cannot condone the other arbitration groups while denying them.
posted by
gomedome
on October 25, 2005 at 2:40 PM
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Tapsel
Were there a God, and I to stand before him this minute, I could face Him in complete confidence that I am a good man. I would ask Him for His forgiveness for such few, and venial sins that I have committed.
And I would give Him mine, for His.
posted by
ariel70
on October 25, 2005 at 2:40 PM
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Gomedome, did you ever stop to think that it just might be the non-believers who are constructing the barriers?
posted by
TAPS.
on October 25, 2005 at 2:34 PM
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NOPEACE'S scripture quotation
if you read further, it refers to "being born of the spirit" -- Spirit in this passage emanates from the Greek word, "Pneuma", which can refer to wind, or thought or anything airy (like pneumatic tires).
It refers to a mind that is reborn -- changing the person's "direction" from animalistic, selfish, etc., to humanistic, outward looking.
and that "again" in the "born again" -- it's Strong's Greek Lexicon # 509, (also refer to "Thayer's Lexicon) http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/5/1130276040-5401.html
meaning "from above" or "a higher place" -- or higher perception -- it describes az person's consciousness rising and perceptions also to that which is higher than the mundane -- and that can mean any number of things.
oh yes, NOPEACE, I happen to be the "right hand man" to our pastor.
posted by
Xeno-x
on October 25, 2005 at 2:33 PM
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ariel70, and it makes me sad to know that many will not be there.
posted by
TAPS.
on October 25, 2005 at 2:32 PM
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Tapsel-T -- it does not bother me one bit and I say good luck to you
but what does bother me; are the congregational barriers established by the mindset of one group thinking they have it right while all others have it wrong. One quick look at this planet, the divergent beliefs and the barriers between them, should illustrate how futile advancing any notion of one true path to heaven is. But people do it anyways, against all reason and in a manner that continues to create more congregational barriers. When does it stop? Or better yet, how does it stop?
posted by
gomedome
on October 25, 2005 at 2:31 PM
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Tapsel
At the risk of being repetitive, I say once more, that altho' I don't believe in your Christian views, I do respect them, and far from being bothered by you arrival in Heaven, while I am maybe elsewhere, I say that that is you reward for being a believer.
Indeed, I would rejoice to know that millions of Christians are in Heaven
posted by
ariel70
on October 25, 2005 at 2:27 PM
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Gome
Yes, I take your point. Didn't I read somewhere that the Canadian government was about to recognize sharia law? Before the London bombs that is.
posted by
ariel70
on October 25, 2005 at 2:24 PM
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Gomedome and Ariel70, What I believe, I believe for myself. I cannot and would not presume to believe anything for anyone else. Luck has nothing to do with anything, it has to do with God's grace. And, being nice is relative. Why does it bother you that I believe that because of God's love and grace and forgivness because of Jesus that I will spend eternity in heaven?
posted by
TAPS.
on October 25, 2005 at 2:24 PM
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ariel70 - good point -- so when are the bible thumpers gonna start?
Just kidding.... but there is a point that you are not considering. Things are quite different on this continent. There is one dominant society amongst only 3 (4 if you count French speaking Quebec) which is currently trying to inflict it's religious will upon the rest of us.
posted by
gomedome
on October 25, 2005 at 2:19 PM
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Gome, Tapsel, et al
My, there ain't half going to be some red faces, when we all finally pop our little clogs All the Christians who find out that there isn't any God after all ; and all the atheists who find out that there is. And maybe both ; who discover that there is a god, but he isn't God
And our faces are going to go about ten shades redder, thnking about the millions of words that we've wasted on the subject, when we could've had a life. Just think, all the hot air that we generate must raise the global climate a good 20 degrees ; and why, if we'd all been nice to each other we wouldn't have half the problems that we do.
posted by
ariel70
on October 25, 2005 at 2:12 PM
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Tapsel-T -- of course they are --- excuse me while I have a laugh break
The modern day Born Again phenomona as extrapulated from Christian protestenism has reached less than 1% of the world's historic populace. You people are extremely lucky to be the only ones to have it right throughout history. Of course this redifines the meaning of an all forgiving and all loving God, but you can't have everything I guess.
posted by
gomedome
on October 25, 2005 at 2:11 PM
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NOPEACE -- ignore history if you want but there was no appreciable
protestant movement until the reformation in the early 1500's. This means that prior to this breakaway from the Church of Rome, that interpretation of the bible as you see it did not exist. Your born again phenomona, no matter how you want to re-write history and paint it with your wishful thinking, emerged much later in religious history.
posted by
gomedome
on October 25, 2005 at 2:05 PM
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They are writing themselves off, Gomedome.
posted by
TAPS.
on October 25, 2005 at 2:05 PM
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Tapsel-T -- so you are saying in effect that the 15 billion Moslems who
have been born and died on this planet in history just made a bad decision based on their free will? Do you really beleive that your God just simply rights people off, who are not exposed to your version of his word?
posted by
gomedome
on October 25, 2005 at 2:01 PM
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MandaLee -- those who believe in Allah will as well
just something to think about
posted by
gomedome
on October 25, 2005 at 1:58 PM
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gomedome,
The so called "born again" movement is not a movement at all. But to give you some clarity to it's origin, it is stated in the bible. "...Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3). So if you would like to state a specific time frame of when this "movement" came to be, it is just as old as the bible since it is stated there. You argue that if we seek validity outside of the bible we will see how false it us. I'll tell you this, 100% of the people who have truly turned their life over to God have sought out validity of the world outside of religion and still turned to God. You want us to study what science and man written books state but I'll ask you this, Have You and XENO ever went to church, or actually sat down with an open mind and spoke with a Christian minister to have your questions about christianity explained?
To deny God is a sin whether you believe in him or not. When you die and if there truly is a God, what will you say? You have read the bible, you have heard his word and with your own free will, you have chosen to reject it. What would you possibly say to God if he really does exist and says that he's going to condemn you to hell for all eternity. When I die and if there happens to be no God, who will I have to answer to? No one, so what do I have to lose by believing in God and accepting Jesus as my lord and savior. Seems to me that you are gambling a great deal more than me.
By you not believing in God, you are in fact implying that you have not committed any sins, and the bible says: "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." 1 John 1:8
Born again means that when you turn you life over to Jesus and your heart is filled with the holy spirit, you no longer live the same way you did before you were saved. Most often, Christianity is mistaken as a religion which in fact it is not. Christianity is a way of life not a religion.
posted by
NOPEACE
on October 25, 2005 at 12:40 PM
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Gomedome, Your facts are great. Your 2 + 2 = 4. One can tell that you have done your studying on the subject. But, you have left out one important element that throws off your equation, God himself, because you do not believe in him. The answer to your title question, for me, is 100%. It is not an individual's religion that is the one true path to heaven, it is Christ himself that is the way. Your miscalculation is in your opinion that the One True Word is innacessable to a large portion of people. He is not innacessable to anyone, unless they specifically reject Him.
posted by
TAPS.
on October 25, 2005 at 12:09 PM
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Gomedome,
Those who accept Christ as their Savior will go to Heaven when they die. We are not robots. God gave everyone free will. Jesus died for our sins, so that those who believe in Him could have eternal life. Its Jesus' gift of love, and their choice.
Just something to think about.
posted by
Amanda__
on October 25, 2005 at 11:34 AM
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Xeno-x - aside from the Noah story and people claiming that Satan is real,
how badly the bible had been edited, manipulated and altered over the years is something that I cannot quite grasp. How can such a work be advanced as the word of God when it is clearly not?
posted by
gomedome
on October 25, 2005 at 10:46 AM
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we'll keep telling themthis
and they'll still keep accepting it as gospel.
but those who seek more validity will seek outside of this.
posted by
Xeno-x
on October 25, 2005 at 8:21 AM
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