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Ody

are you sure you would like it in Utah?

posted by Xeno-x on October 27, 2005 at 12:06 PM | link to this | reply

Ody

So you are saying that because Liberal ideas have proven themselves to be effective out here, while Conservative ideas have been pulling our local economy down, that you would protest the fact that we wish to go back with what has worked?

I have seen first hand just how well Liberal thinking works over Conservative thinking. I want to see growth and I want to see a future for this state, so I have to favor Liberal thinking fully because it has proven itself to work, while Conservative thinking has proven itself to destroy strong economies and create unemployment.

Colorado would be nothing like what you have enjoyed when you've been out here if it were not for Liberal ideas. Liberal ideas built up Colorado into what it is today. So you have already enjoyed the gain that Liberal thinking creates. Many of those ski resorts would have had some problems in the past if it were not for the Liberal policies of our local government.

So out here we are all hoping for Liberal ideas to once more take over and get us back on track.

posted by kooka_lives on October 26, 2005 at 8:55 AM | link to this | reply

Good critique of Big Business

Henry Ford also said "Integrity is crucial for business success - once you can fake that, you've got it made."

You make some good points.  Self-interest is really dangerous in the hands of the uber-rich, but it is necessary in the hands and minds of the poor. 

posted by Trevor_Cunnington on October 26, 2005 at 5:51 AM | link to this | reply

corporate economic principles, ody and gomey

expend as little as possible for personnel so that you can make a profit.

good national economics

give workers more money so that they can spend it.

Henry Ford knew this.

posted by Xeno-x on October 25, 2005 at 3:42 PM | link to this | reply

Kooka – Hmmmmm, I never knew all this about

the forthcoming dominance of liberal politics in Colorado.  Maybe I should go to Utah this year?

posted by telemachus on October 25, 2005 at 11:32 AM | link to this | reply

FancysSchmancy

Thank you.
Glad you enjoy my posts

posted by kooka_lives on October 25, 2005 at 8:14 AM | link to this | reply

gomedome, CB

Part of the problem with the 'buy American' concept is that many of these great companies such as Wal-Mart who push the ideas of 'Buy American' really don't care. They only do that if they think it will bring profits and not because they really wish to be patriotic. For all the BS they spit out about how they love the country and wish to help it grow, their actions show that they very much do not care.

Basically greed is keeping the companies from making the sacrifices needed to keep things from collapsing. Right it looks like we will just have to wait for that collapse to happen before people wake up to reality, which is what we are headed for and it is clearly due to conservative thinking allowing Big Business to have control, which has meant we are being run fully off of greed. The average person's needs are not being considered as the short term profit for the wealthy have become the main focus.

Dome, I understood that it really was too late for a reward system to help or make the needed changes. But once more that is because all that Bush has cared about is the short term fixes that his tax cuts were and he did not care about doing anything to insure that we had long term security through them. As I keep saying, Conservative ideas do not seem to care at all about the long term or the consequences, it ia ll about the most profit here and now. That is why so many big companies have gone under in the last decade. They were worried about the short term for too long. That is why Wal-Mart will start to collapse in the not too distance future.

I'll write up my post about Marvel Comics here in a just few to really show the downfall of conservative thinking.

posted by kooka_lives on October 25, 2005 at 8:12 AM | link to this | reply

Ody

It does not matter if you agree or not, facts are facts. Colorado has grown the most when it has had Liberal leadership and the economy out here has been at its worst with conservative leadership.

Tourism generally is our biggest industry, but all signs point to big problem with that this year, thanks to all of what Bush has done to ruin America's economy to a point where only the wealthy can afford to do anything. I already know many locals who can not afford to go up skiing this year because they need to pay the bills and take care of their families.

I keep seeing first hand just what conservative ideas are doing and ti is not hard at all to see that things are much worse here with conservative ideas having power above liberal ones. Time and time again I have seen proof that it is liberal thinking that really makes things better and promotes healthy growth for all, not just the insane growth for the wealthy, which is all Conservative ideas promote.

posted by kooka_lives on October 25, 2005 at 8:00 AM | link to this | reply

Very Good Reading

Wow I just came across your blog.. And I ended up reading several of yours. I've heard bits and pieces about Wal-Mart over the years from the public's opinions. Theyve been nothing but eye opening against the stupid misleading commercials they put out there. Supposed employees that recieved amazing beneficial awards by working for Wal-mart.. to recruit or change the minds of what the public hears. Didnt work for me :) Your blog reconfirmed what I thought was to be true. Good for you.
I remember when wally world professed that they only bought and sold American. I found that not to be true the first day of seeing that commercial. I had gone to walmart and bought some camping equipment and noticed it was manufactured outside of the US. Right there I didnt trust them.
I find it funny and rediculous that to work for a minimum wage job that goes nowhere.. you have to be drug tested.. Welp I can find many a job that doesnt require that and will pay more. But that is a whole nother subject. Infact I think I will go write about that... :)
Keep up the good writings. Oh and anything you can post about living in Ore please do. I lived there when I was a child (in portland) and one day hope to live there again along the Willamette.
Keep up the GREAT work.. I will be back

posted by FancysSchmancy on October 25, 2005 at 6:42 AM | link to this | reply

CB_Andrews - no I don't think that the current efforts by Lou Dobbs etc.

will revive the 80's sentiment of buying American again. I made my move in this regard 30 months ago when speaking, I advised all who would listen to convert US Funds to Can. Funds. This was based on the fact that only currency devaluation was left as an economic stimulus for the US administration. Further devaluation is now inevitable.  

posted by gomedome on October 24, 2005 at 7:46 PM | link to this | reply

"buy american"

I say it's a stretch because think of everything in America that's made overseas. Everything from cars to shoes are cheaper and easier to find when assembled or made in another country. It seems to me the american thing to do has become buy foreign, rather than american.

posted by CB_Andrews on October 24, 2005 at 7:44 PM | link to this | reply

gome

do you think a "buy american" sentiment will happen anytime soon. I think it's possible, but it's a stretch.

posted by CB_Andrews on October 24, 2005 at 7:37 PM | link to this | reply

kooka_lives -- your comment wanders in and out of a basic understanding of

economic principles. There are 3 levers that an administration can pull to stimulate a domestic economy. Lower interest rates, provide tax incentives and devalue currency. Tax cuts being a reward system for good corporate citizenship is a novel idea but no economy can risk new or novel approaches during "fragile" economic times. The solution to the problems you are outlining will not come from higher up in the economic food chain, historically they never have within a capitolist paradigm. The only real hope is a grass roots revival of  the "buy American" sentiment, or the more likely scenario of  a dramatic currency devaluation, in conjunction with an economic collapse, followed by an economic re-structuring.  

 

 

posted by gomedome on October 24, 2005 at 7:32 PM | link to this | reply

kooka

Well, I’m not sure that I agree that conservative ideas could have caused all that but, honestly, I have no knowledge of the Colorado economy at this time. I do know that it’s still pretty expensive to come out there every year so the tourism industry must be fairing O.K.

posted by telemachus on October 24, 2005 at 6:43 PM | link to this | reply

Ody

Things are not booming out here because of conservative ideas which have caused the lack of growth. You just need to study the recent history of Colorado to see this clearly. Basically the ideas you are defending are what is the major problem here. Lucky for us we are getting liberal again and you can see that in the fact that growth is slowly starting up gain. Now we just need to get Bush out of office and a good liberal running the country and Colorado will gets its growth back.

posted by kooka_lives on October 24, 2005 at 6:38 PM | link to this | reply

gomedome

What Wal-Mart is doing, and other companies as well right now, is finding ways to force down the competitive wages to a point where they are not paying much at all. Every year you will hear just how great Wal-Mart is doing, how sales are going up and profits are record breaking. And every year Wal-mart finds ways to lower annual raises for the i employees, reduce benefits and bonuses. I saw all of this first hand while I was working for them , and yet every year we would hear just how great the company is doing. I would think if a company is doing better it would start to give its employees more money, not less.

I do understand how all that BS of investors and such work. The real problem with that is such focus is only on the short term profit, and overlooks the long term completely. A great example of this is Marvel Comics, which when it went public suddenly had to try and make sure it had to worry about short term profit, which is rare for comic book company and not focus on the long term profits which is how a comic book company gets by, and they almost went bankrupt because of that. I will have to write a post on that for you all. If Wal-Mart keeps on as it is, I can promise you they will find themselves in deep trouble in the next decade or so and anyone who is investing in Wal-Mart for the long term right now is going so suffer. It is not going to be long before those who shop at Wal-Mart are not going to be able to spend much at Wal-Mart because of what Wal-Mart is doing. Big business needs to be responsible because if they are it will end up helping with the long run profits, even if it might hurt the short term for a little bit. The facts are at times it is not unhealthy for companies to loose money, as long as in general they are making money.

There are not simple answers, and I am not saying the government should take over. I am saying that things like tax cuts should not be given to companies if they are not proving that they are using those tax cuts to help the economy, which is the reason we are given as to why those tax cuts are being given. After Bush gave the last batch of tax cuts, all the companies were declaring great profits, yet the rate of pay and benefits and such that were being given to their employees did not go up, if anything it went down. The tax cuts went straight to the bottom line, which in itself is not helping the economy out at all. Tax cuts need to be set up as a reward system for those companies that really are showing they care about the American economy.

posted by kooka_lives on October 24, 2005 at 6:35 PM | link to this | reply

kooka

You are not the first to allude to the situation with Wal-Mart and as Gome suggested, it may be time for anti-trust legislation in this arena.

It is hard to figure why things would not be booming there. It is such a beautiful place. I love it out there. BTW, I’m coming out there snow skiing again this winter.

posted by telemachus on October 24, 2005 at 6:32 PM | link to this | reply

Ody

I am looking a the big picture of over the last few years out here. When thing were being run through liberal ideas, we were booming. Unemployment was down to 2%, there was growth every you turned. Then everything got conservative and our unemployment rate tripled in just a few years, growth came to a sudden stop and pay rate went down the toilet. Places were going out of business every where because more and more people lacked the money needed to buy luxuries. Wal-mart and the other Big boys started to basically take control and our economy has not recovered from it at all. You friend should have come out here a decade a go, when liberal thinking had create a great economy. I know many people who moved ut here because of the liberal thinking and because if was very much creating growth.

We do have a lot of skilled people out here who can not find jobs because the need for skilled worker is going down, due to the fact that there are less and less actual companies out there to use skilled workers. So then those people who have skills have to find work somewhere and since Wal-Mart is everywhere now they have little choice if they wish to have a job. I knew many people who should have had nice paying jobs, but had to settle for Wal-Mart and that did allow for Wal-Mart to keep on reducing raises and such every chance they got. I wrote a full post on it a few weeks back and I think you and other might need a new post on it as well.

It is because Wal-Mart is able to put all the better paying places out of business and pay less that creates this idea that there does not need to be fair wages. They pushed the bar down all around them, so that they do not look as bad. Trust me, I was very much aware of this going on while I Was working there, it is just I was unable to find a better job since I had been there a long enough to earn more than the beginning rate of pay. They trap their employees and they know it, then they dump their employees when their employees start making too much money. I was one of a dozen or so employees that had been with the company for a while at that point who were laid off. All of them were good workers, just they had gotten too close to a fair pay.

Basically it is companies like Wal-Mart who are bringing our whole economy down. And it is the conservative defending those ideas that are just causing more harm.

posted by kooka_lives on October 24, 2005 at 6:18 PM | link to this | reply

hahahahahahahhahaa

posted by Ariala on October 24, 2005 at 6:12 PM | link to this | reply

Even a broken clock tells correct time twice a day

posted by gomedome on October 24, 2005 at 6:10 PM | link to this | reply

Did he just say he agreed with me?

Good facking night! Must be Halloween. Blackcat’s talking to me. Gome actually agreed with something I said. What weird thing is going to happen next? Good God! I need a drink!

posted by telemachus on October 24, 2005 at 5:57 PM | link to this | reply

kooka_lives - I almost choke on the words but I agree with your esteemed

previous commentor. Your perspective seems entirely from an employee's point of view. No business owes a concern above and beyond a safe working environment and competitive wages to it's employees. The first priority of any business is to it's investors, those taking the financial risk. Uninvested employees simply cannot be considered above invested parties or you have nothing. This is not to say that responsible and moral treatment of employees isn't vitally important but protecting the bottom line has to be the priority. If it is not the top priority, the propigating factor of the capitolist equation, in investment, dries up.  Admittedly the scenarios you describe are unhealthy for an economy but what you see as unfair practices and stupidity on the part of big business are much more complicated issues than just doling out money to the poor. If anything, the capitolist system has an achilles heel, in that there is a point beyond attaining critical mass and economies of scale that no longer works. When companies grow so large that they become economic sector dictators, such as Wal-Mart is now, there is no formulae outside of government intervention, or socialism if you prefer, which carries with it the risk of scaring away investment capitol and causing economic hardship to an extent greater than the malaise it is trying to cure. There are no simple answers to this problem.

posted by gomedome on October 24, 2005 at 5:46 PM | link to this | reply

Kooka

Actually I agree with you that you could probably run things very well in a small or larger company. You may need a little more competitive attitude though, I’m not sure. Anyway, it seems like the economy must be very different where you are than here. The way it is here, there is a big shortage of skilled workers, especially in the construction industry.

It’s not that I wish to deny fair wages, only that there has to be economic motivation to make people strive to be more than a Wal-mart worker. I had a friend here who left and went out to Colorado because he loved the environment so much out there; and he recently returned saying he couldn’t find work out there either. And he is a very successful contractor.

All of your quotes did make me sound a little like Adam Smith. Sorry! And this post was written more toward blogit in general (like a post), so not everything I said was directed at you personally. You made some very good points in your response.

posted by telemachus on October 24, 2005 at 5:17 PM | link to this | reply

Ody

Wow, did ever you just show us what is really wrong with conservative thinking. Everything you just said very clearly gave the message that people do not matter at all and that Big Business has every right to run the country and control it all.

For all you talk of being good and doing right and so on, you really do not believe in that at all.

"going to, as you say, “low rung” employees is determined by an economic concept known as “supply and demand”. That is, the smaller the supply of such workers, the higher their wages would be, and vice versa. Believe me, Wal-Mart is going to staff their stores! But is it fair to ask them to pay one particular worker more, when they can turn around and hire another worker of the same caliber for less? I think not."


But you also do not demand hard work out of people for little pay. Big Business should not be rewarded for basically paying their employees less and less as their CEOs get paid more and more. I am already positive beyond belief I could run a company like Wal-Mart and do a much better job than those who have their degrees and such. I have real skills, that going to school can not give you.



"The key to obtaining higher wages is to engage in an occupation that has less participants, and is thus in higher demand. To do this, one must learn a special skill, acquire special education, or be able to deliver a unique service. This requires a commitment to improve ones skills beyond what is required to staff a Wal-Mart store."


You really live on a different planet than I do. Collage degrees are almost meaningless now days. Seriously. I have skills like mad, but no one wishes to pay me what my skills are worth. it has nothing to do with skill. I know people who have master degrees and have ahd to settle for real crappy jobs. So that line is only used by those who got the degrees and got the jobs and so now are not working very hard at all, btu are making good money by not working hard.



"Too many people today want to whine for someone else to take care of them. The government needs to do this! Big Business needs to do that! God ought to do this or that! Yet, the biggest need is for the person to do something for themselves. "


I want no one to take care of me, nor do nay of the people I know. We just wish to get paid fairly. I will never understand why you are saying that Big Business does not need to pay fair wages. I have yet to see anyone give good logic for that. You really want greed to be the main controlling force over this country. That is just sad.



"It is very competitive in the business environment. Unless you have a motive for tremendous success, I would recommend that you not go into business for yourself. Any businessman who's best hope for a new business is to “break even” will likely meet with severe disaster. People who succeed in business are captivated by the process of running the business. By that I mean that they are constantly working to improve their product, better reach their customers, or “out-do” their competitors in some way to gain greater market share. Running a business is a competitive game in and of itself. "


I am very much aware it is competitive and I can promise you I will be successful at it. I never said break even, I said make enough to justify running it. I am not trying to get rich by doing it, because there is more to life than money. I just wish to open a store, make sells that pay the bills and provide for my family and sooner or later allow me to try other enterprises out. I have integrity to ever allow my business to become the heartless, greed monster that is Big Business.



"When businesses profit and expand they ARE creating jobs in new markets. But you cannot expect them to pay their employees any more than the job market can demand. For an employee to earn more, they must become competitively superior to other employees just like the business must become competitively superior to other businesses. That is the nature of a capitalistic society."


They create jobs by destroying jobs. It is fact that very often they get a lot of new employees from store that close down due to them opening. They then pay less to these new employees than what they were getting at their old jobs, although they can afford to pay more. This is what is destroying the economy. They push the pay level down, so they can pay less since all the places that were paying more are gone and people have less of a choice as to where to go. it is supply and demand, when the choices get more and more limited, you have to take what is being offered and when Wal-Mart or other Big Wigs are all that is around, then that is the pay you have to accept. Logic very much says that the more stores that are out there, the more competitive the pay has to be. That is why Wal-Mart seems to enjoy putting all others out of business. It allows them to pay less.


"Wanna make more money? Get an education."

I have an education and that is getting me no where. My degree is more or less worthless because I did not have the right contacts. I did an internship, but I was way more competent that the guy in charge (Who had his job for reasons that had nothing to do with his knowledge or skills), and so he did all he could to get me out of there. He really did not like that I already knew more than him when I started, as did the other guy in the program with me who was also pushed out.

"Gain valuable experience."

Did that at Wal-Mart and they got rid of me because I had too much experience and they did not want to pay me what I was worth for the experience I had. Hell, I was running my department better than nay other department manger in the store, as well as maintaining a 20% sales increase, which no other department was doing at that time.

"Learn a valuable skill."

Been there, done that. Just look at my last few comments.

"Put something together that works uniquely for society, such that society is willing to pay for it."

My business plans right now would very much fit in with that, btu I lack the money to get things started and am working on doing a real good business plan so that I can try for loan.

" Learn how to motivate other people and manage them to get things done!"

I already am better at that than most of the management I have ever worked for or seen. But once more that has never been that kind of thing that gets people jobs. Of this I am positive, because that is what I have seen with my own two eyes. Such skills are really ignored in the business world, no matter what kind of BS you may wish to believe in.

"Don't expect big business, the government, God, or anybody else to look after you."

I don't (Especially fictional characters like God) I just expect to be paid fair wages for my work and for others to get the same. You obviously do not. You think people should get ripped off by Big Business and treated poorly if they have not had the breaks in life that you have. I have done so many things right and my skills, intelligent and such are the kind of things you are claiming companies find valuable, but so far I have yet to see that. What I keep seeing is that the skills and degrees and all of that become meaningless. People play favorite and go for the suck ups or family members above those who really should have such jobs. Most successful established business would not be successful if their were managed when they were started the way they are today. Wal-Mart would never have become what it is if the management practices that are running things had been what Sam Walton used. They really are just poor business practices that only the big companies can get away with.

"Look after yourself!"

I keep trying, but Big Business seems to want to make sure I am not doing well by not paying fair wages or hiring competent, skillful employees because they do not wish to pay people what they are worth.

"And Be Good!"

I hope someday Big Business listens to you advice there.

I really wish I knew why you were so into backing up the ideas that are bring about the end of American freedom. Big Business should not be running our country and yet you seem to very much defend their right to do such. I hope to never become the greedy, heartless kind of person I see the Conservatives being. You really just do not care about people at all it seems.

posted by kooka_lives on October 24, 2005 at 4:03 PM | link to this | reply

In a capitalistic society, the amount of wages

going to, as you say, “low rung” employees is determined by an economic concept known as “supply and demand”.  That is, the smaller the supply of such workers, the higher their wages would be, and vice versa.  Believe me, Wal-Mart is going to staff their stores!  But is it fair to ask them to pay one particular worker more, when they can turn around and hire another worker of the same caliber for less?  I think not.

 

The key to obtaining higher wages is to engage in an occupation that has less participants, and is thus in higher demand.  To do this, one must learn a special skill, acquire special education, or be able to deliver a unique service.  This requires a commitment to improve ones skills beyond what is required to staff a Wal-Mart store.

 

Too many people today want to whine for someone else to take care of them.  The government needs to do this!  Big Business needs to do that!  God ought to do this or that!  Yet, the biggest need is for the person to do something for themselves. 

 

It is very competitive in the business environment.   Unless you have a motive for tremendous success, I would recommend that you not go into business for yourself.  Any businessman who’s best hope for a new business is to “break even” will likely meet with severe disaster.  People who succeed in business are captivated by the process of running the business.  By that I mean that they are constantly working to improve their product, better reach their customers, or “out-do” their competitors in some way to gain greater market share.  Running a business is a competitive game in and of itself. 

 

When businesses profit and expand they ARE creating jobs in new markets.  But you cannot expect them to pay their employees any more than the job market can demand.  For an employee to earn more, they must become competitively superior to other employees just like the business must become competitively superior to other businesses.  That is the nature of a capitalistic society.

 

Wanna make more money?  Get an education.  Gain valuable experience.  Learn a valuable skill.  Put something together that works uniquely for society, such that society is willing to pay for it.  Learn how to motivate other people and manage them to get things done!  Don’t expect big business, the government, God, or anybody else to look after you.  Look after yourself!  And Be Good!

posted by telemachus on October 24, 2005 at 2:35 PM | link to this | reply

good post

if you don't watch it you'll inspire me to post -- my experiences

big business cares little about its employees.  that's the bottom line.

in fact it's the bottom line that they care about.

and giving profits to stockholders.

you will notice that when workers get less, the "economy" improves.  we can see WHOSE economy we're talking about.

they try to get out of paying fair wages, paying for adequate health insurance, paying pensions (by dismissing personnel just before they are eligible for retirement -- or draining retirement accounts, maintaining a healthful working environment.

it's not big "barons" any more -- Rockefeller, J.P. Morgan, and that ilk -- it's "stockholders" -- n order to sell stocks and for the stocks to appreciate well in value, companies must show more profits than they did the year before -- and the best way to do that is over the backs of their employees.

factories moved from the cities, where unions held sway, to rural America, where they didn't, to the South where people would accept less wages, to Mexico, where people'd accept even less and worker health and safety was not protected and air and water weren't protected from pollution (the Rio Grand is one big noxious cesspool now) to Se Asis where they can pay people at most $2 a day and not have any of the issues mentioned above and even be able to lock and chain doors so that in case of fire there is no exit and people can die (it has happened recently).  They are returning to 19th Century practices.  We are regressing a full century.

and then American workers have to accept more menial, service sector jobs, at much lower pay.

and of course Corporate America doesn't see where they are "shooting themselves in the foot", so to speak, in that the less money people have to spend, the less they spend, and the less the economy really grows.

and of course our GW Bushie administration hides all this and paints such a rosy picture of things.

you could write reams on this (wait a minute many have!!!  -- only it doesn't much see the light of day) -- and still the Bushites will fail to acknowledge that there is a problem.

oh well.

posted by Xeno-x on October 24, 2005 at 1:43 PM | link to this | reply