Go to Religion in the Modern World
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- Go to Magic? --- what Magic? -- Yeah - religion asks you to believe in magic.
gome... ROFL... incest. That is so funny.. and true! I'm going to have
to visit here more often.
posted by
-blackcat
on October 18, 2005 at 8:01 PM
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blackcat30 -- This is the point where all good Christians begin to shine us
on...if that saying is still used. They are polishing up the yarn, the obvious questions have been asked a million times before, so they have invented throwaway logic. Something that is only slightly more plausible than the ludicrous story of Noah itself. Bubbling springs of water, no air pollution, holy magic in the air or whatever. Then you hit them with "so this is the second time that our entire species has been populated via incest?" ...then they scurry away to think up more throwaway logic.
posted by
gomedome
on October 18, 2005 at 7:58 PM
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the more I read about this, the more I realize... I really need to reread
Noah's story. I'm still stuck on him being 950 years old. LOL
posted by
-blackcat
on October 18, 2005 at 7:49 PM
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kooka_lives - that was the most entertaining comment I have ever had
It breaks down the first story that I remember as a kid that everyone in the class went HUH? We were 10 years old. Sister Neverhadaman and Sister Noguyforme were trying to tell our grade 5 class that Noah took 2 of every animal on his boat and the native boys broke out howling with laughter. They were Northern Algonquins, inventors of the birch bark canoe and reserved on a patch of land that was teaming with prime wild game. Having never seen anything bigger than a canoe or a kayak as a boat in their lives, they had a size relationship problem with Noah's boat immediately. When the fervant sisters tried to spin the rest of the yarn by saying 2 of every animal in the world ...well the native boys just burst out laughing. They had seen so much game in their little patch of this earth that they wouldn't buy it. When reading the Noah story it becomes obvious that the only person related to the story who was falling down drunk and sleeping naked was the story author. Probably an 8th century scribe, holed up in some monestary somewhere in Europe, sipping some of the Friar's best brandy and re-writing the bible. So someone was all pissed up while transcribing the word of God? .....can that happen?...didn't Satan invent liquor?
posted by
gomedome
on October 18, 2005 at 7:45 PM
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Noah was not a vegetarian
I have no idea where this came from, because I can find nothing to back that up. According to the Bible once Eden was closed off to all, some animals and man became meat eaters from my understanding. After all there is talk about cattle at that point and the only use for cattle would have been a food source.
If you read the story of Noah, he was instructed to bring food with him and so he took some extra beasts that he could eat.
Genesis 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee seven and seven, the male and his female;
He also had seven of every bird for some reason as well, which seemed to be about food as well as far as I can figure.
Although it is interesting that Noah goes through all this trouble to save those animals and then right away after the flood he sacrifices animals to God.
We can then get into some twisted stuff of Noah getting drunk and passing out, naked in his own tent. His youngest son Ham, sees him and is offended and so has the others help him cover Noah, but this pisses Noah off and because Ham saw his father naked, Ham's son Canaan gets cursed by Noah that all his descendants are to be slaves, just because Ham saw Noah, hs father, naked. That whole thing really get strange and I have yet to ever understand any of it. But somehow Noah was a good enough guy that God allowed him to curse his own family because he was a dumb ass and got drunk and passed out without wearing enough clothes to cover himself. Now I can swear that a curse is a form of magic, not a form of miracle. So was Noah's curse actually a deal with the devil?
posted by
kooka_lives
on October 18, 2005 at 6:41 PM
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gracefulwitch1 -- my experience was a bit unique
we lived way up North near Hudson's Bay. I attended a centuries year old mission school staffed by every reject the catholic church was trying to hide from criminal prosecution. A full convent of wacko nuns and a handful of pedophile priests administered an 18th century style residential school with students that were 85% native and 15% white day students such as myself. The compund contained the barracks for the native "prisoners", a hospital to collect money from the government, a castle of a church and the mission school. If the natives weren't trying to escape, they were trying to burn the place down. It was great fun. A sicker institution has never existed than this offence to humanity.
posted by
gomedome
on October 17, 2005 at 10:06 PM
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DID THE TIME LOLOL...........from kindergarten to 8th grade. I hated the uniforms. I have received all the Sacraments with the exception of my Last Rights but I do have to say that several that live with me have come very very close to having to have their Last Rights........menopause, I am a bit moody ;)
posted by
gracefulwitch1
on October 17, 2005 at 9:35 PM
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gracefulwitch1 -- did your time in the catholic church as well?
Yep, me too.
posted by
gomedome
on October 17, 2005 at 8:44 PM
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YUP
Thank you for the warm welcome and I couldnt have put it better myself. When I was attending Kansas State University I took several courses in Philosophy.........wow, I changed my whole perspective in regard to organized religion. I was baptized Catholic when I was about two weeks old..........I now have a pin I proudly wear on my coat that says "Recovering Catholic". I was amazed at what I had learned. I have been practicing Wicca for about 10 years now and I tell you what...........I have such inner peace, I feel like I have come home and I most likely have. Will add you to my favorites and post here often hun. Very nice meeting you.
posted by
gracefulwitch1
on October 17, 2005 at 8:06 PM
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gracefulwitch1 - welcome to Blogit
Yeah, the question of the pagan holidays. When one submerges themselves into ancient mythology this is the first glaring caution, telling us that what mankind wants to believe and what really is, are two different things. Following the progression of how certain days were kept as sacred festivals to appease certain segments of the populace, you begin to realize the entire notion of specific "holy days" is nothing more than a facade. Then add the prophecies of a the messiah born under an astrological anomoly as son of God incarnate, one begins to realize the intricate construction that man has undertaken to create God in his own image.
posted by
gomedome
on October 17, 2005 at 7:29 PM
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yup
posted by
Xeno-x
on October 17, 2005 at 3:44 PM
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Christian Holidays
Shall I even go there????? I havent read all the comments due to the fact that I am work but had to make a small comment here myself......all Christian holidays have pagan roots.........things that make you go Hummmmmm. Just a thought there y'all.
posted by
gracefulwitch1
on October 17, 2005 at 3:02 PM
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blackcat, not a misprint...I see where Gomey answered the question. After
meat eating entered the picture, not even swinging an jawbone could keep them alive that long. 
Can you imagine being married to the same person for 900+ years? You'd want to make sure you married the right person...oh wait, maybe that's why they had more than one wife and all those concubines.
posted by
Ariala
on October 17, 2005 at 1:34 PM
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blackcat30 -- Noah lived for 950 years
Just fell short of Methuselah by a few decades. See what slugging your guts out building wooden aircraft carriers gets you?
posted by
gomedome
on October 17, 2005 at 1:32 PM
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Ariala... Noah spent 120 years building it? is that a misprint?
posted by
-blackcat
on October 17, 2005 at 1:20 PM
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Gomey, oh and one more thing that always annoyed me. The
fact that the American Indians were called "savages" by early settlers.
posted by
Ariala
on October 17, 2005 at 12:55 PM
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Gome, LOL...every culture and religion seems to have a flood story. Satan
was a busy one, eh? Wonder if he can breathe under water?
posted by
Ariala
on October 17, 2005 at 12:49 PM
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Ariala - further on Native Americans -- when the first missionaries made
contact with them, they uncovered stories amongst native mythology of the "watery chaos" were only a chosen few survived a catastrophe in ancient times. Of course the missionaries knew how these natives had developed these stories without any outside influence. That tricky ol Satan again, seems he got to North America even before Columbus.
posted by
gomedome
on October 17, 2005 at 12:38 PM
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Gome, I have a few projects around the house good ole Noah might be
able to help me with. He did spend like 120 years building that ark, if I remember right.
posted by
Ariala
on October 17, 2005 at 11:57 AM
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Araila and blackcat30 - if they all had cages, then like I said:
that Noah was one heck of a carpenter.
posted by
gomedome
on October 17, 2005 at 11:54 AM
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Gomey, being that they weren't carnivores yet, they might have been more
gentle? But I do imagine every animal had its own cage or quarters. The fact that these animals were walking onto the Ark by themselves (yes, I know more "magic" to believe
) tells me that they were being subdued by a higher force at work. Think of it like the American Indians who have animal guides. Some claim wolves, bears and other wild animals have shown up and guided them.
posted by
Ariala
on October 17, 2005 at 11:41 AM
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I'm sure they were in cages, don't you think?
posted by
-blackcat
on October 17, 2005 at 11:32 AM
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Ariala -- now envision a boat with about the same material in it's
structure (all wood mind you) as Arrowhead Stadium. As far as we know, built by one man with baby dinosaurs running around on it's decks promising not to eat any of the other critters, or any of Noah's kids. Where's the problem? Sounds real enough.
posted by
gomedome
on October 17, 2005 at 11:28 AM
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baby dinosaurs... LOL... that solves it. ; )
posted by
-blackcat
on October 17, 2005 at 11:22 AM
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The key to all of this is babies, not full size creatures...
posted by
Ariala
on October 17, 2005 at 11:20 AM
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blackcat and Gome, I found this info that was rather interesting
The Bible teaches that everything in the universe was created in the same week (read Exodus 20:11). From this we know that men and dinosaurs lived at the same time. Also, there are creatures mentioned in the book of Job that sound very much like dinosaurs (read Job 40,41). Job lived after the Flood. If the book of Job mentions dinosaurs, then some of them must have lived after the Flood. All men, animals, and birds which were not on the ark drowned. If any dinosaurs lived after the Flood, some of them had to have been on the ark. You might wonder how such large creatures could have gotten onto the ark. That is easy! The ark was 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet tall. You know how big a football field is. The ark was much longer than that! Not only was the ark very big, but dinosaurs were very small when they were young. If Noah took baby dinosaurs with him, they might not have been bigger than an average dog. Some scientists believe that when all of the animals were on the ark, it was still only half full. That is a big ark! Read Genesis 6-8 and see how that Noah did just what God said. Because he did, God saved him, his family, and at least two of every major type of animal alive at that time.
An interesting link is: http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2001/dinos_on_ark.asp
posted by
Ariala
on October 17, 2005 at 11:19 AM
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Gome... not sure if I can believe that dinosaurs were on the ark...
Maybe they just got lost in the flood? What about the ice age?
posted by
-blackcat
on October 17, 2005 at 11:09 AM
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blackcat30 -- there is a camp that proposes just that
Unfortunately it makes the logistics of the Ark story even more ludicrous. The wooden structure of Noah's boat would have to be the size of an aircraft carrier to accomodate how we originally were taught this story but add dinosaurs to it? Now the structure is the size of Ireland, one heck of a carpenter that Noah?
posted by
gomedome
on October 17, 2005 at 11:07 AM
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Ariala -- I don't necessarily choose evolution -- it's a theory missing an
entire link, nor do I find the Big Bang theory adequate but we do know a few things from physical evidence. Some dinosaurs sure look like meat eaters judging from their bones and teeth. And I refuse to believe that The Flintstones cartoons should have the caveate "based on a true story" added to the credits. If nothing else, the timeline or chronology as depicted in the book of Genessis is rendered vague.
posted by
gomedome
on October 17, 2005 at 11:04 AM
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Ariala... I never knew that. What prompted the change I wonder?
Not sure what to think about the dinosaurs... does that mean they were on the ark also?
posted by
-blackcat
on October 17, 2005 at 10:57 AM
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Gome, well, according to the Creation story, eh, man and dino lived
together. I just "got" your question...and yes, I know you don't believe this story and choose evolution. Hope I'm not featured in your blog anytime soon. ROFL
posted by
Ariala
on October 17, 2005 at 10:31 AM
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Gome, dunno the answer to that, was just pointing out that according to
Genesis, ALL, and it seems that included Barney the dino, were vegetarians PRIOR to the flood.
posted by
Ariala
on October 17, 2005 at 10:29 AM
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Ariala - so by using this as an explanation
Dinosaurs must not have existed prior to man. Either that or T-Rex had some mighty powerful jaws and teeth for cleaning off a few shrubs.
posted by
gomedome
on October 17, 2005 at 10:26 AM
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Blackcat, meat eating for animals and humans, according to Scripture, did
not occur until AFTER the flood. In other words, none of the animals on the ark were carnivores. Every living creature, prior to the flood was vegetarian.
"And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground-- everything that has the breath of life in it-- I give every green plant for food." And it was so. Genesis 1:30 This was BEFORE the flood.
After the flood, things changed:
"Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything." Genesis 9:3
posted by
Ariala
on October 17, 2005 at 10:09 AM
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gome... I understand your point, but Christians explain them by saying
they are miracles. I'm just curious how the meat eaters on the ark are explained from a Christian viewpoint? I suppose I should know, since I am one, but I really have no clue.
posted by
-blackcat
on October 17, 2005 at 9:59 AM
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UsualSuspect - that's the same reaction I got from my bible thumping
in laws. They don't even know what they are objecting to but are certain it is the work of Satan. Too funny.
posted by
gomedome
on October 17, 2005 at 9:57 AM
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blackcat30 - I can explain all of those miracles or at least give the most
likely explanation. None of them ever happened. A series of unexplained events were elaborated upon by people that believed such things could happen. There is nothing more to it.
posted by
gomedome
on October 17, 2005 at 9:55 AM
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I have clients that share those beliefs...that Harry Potter and Halloween are from Satan's realm. Talking to one of them, I realized she had no clue what Harry Potter was even about, had never seen a movie or picked up one of the books. Quick to judge and criticize without one solid leg to stand on...typical.
posted by
UsualSuspect
on October 17, 2005 at 9:53 AM
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No one can explain a miracle... but I would like an answer to that
question about the carnivores on the ark. I've never thought about that before!
posted by
-blackcat
on October 17, 2005 at 9:52 AM
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kooka_lives - your comment has more substance than this post
We have people in our family (in laws) who object to the Harry Potter series and Halloween. If you try to nail them down as to why they object, the answers are fairly comical. This is as far as we have come in eliminating superstition?
posted by
gomedome
on October 17, 2005 at 9:40 AM
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You just don't understand
I don't either really. Someone tried to explain it to me though.
Somehow when it is done through God it is a 'miracle' and so is not magic. If the same kid of things are done through other powers, no matter what the person crafting the magic may believe, it is a demon behind it and so is magic and evil. of course to me this says that demons are as powerful as God since it seems they can do anything they desire and God is unable to stop them.
So once more it is the idea the the Bible is 100% correct about it all and should not be disputed, while all other beliefs that have magic to them are 100% wrong and are really demons behind it all.
I still do not understand how miracles are not spells or magic. As far as I am concerned if such powers are out there, it should not really matter where they come from but to what they are used for. But believers generally are all or nothing on the issue, so motive matters not at all.
Of course would it not make sense for demons to create miracles and fool people into believe they were the hand of God? How many miracles are really God's work and how many are demons doing what looks to be good things with the idea that hey are taking believers away from God?
AS with so many other faith based concepts it does not take long to show that the whole logic of it all is flimsily and falls apart quickly once you seriously look at it. Yet many believers will try to come up with some level of justification for it all.
posted by
kooka_lives
on October 17, 2005 at 9:29 AM
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