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calebs
i've taken up the subject of universal salvation in my blogs.
salvation? -- all it takes is to believe that one is "saved", basically all right. Gomedome and Kooka and other atheists and agnostics are already saved -- because they know they are not condemned -- that's what salvation really is.
and "Jesus Christ" -- well, that is a concept, not a person. Jesus -- from Joshua -- show led the Israelites into the Promised Land. Christ -- means "anointed", basically as "king", via the lineage of King David. This means that we believe we are not condemned in any way -- that we have entered into that Promised Land of no more condemnation, and that we are royalty. There are no caste or class, etc., separations -- we all are on the same high level.
posted by
Xeno-x
on October 5, 2005 at 6:37 AM
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good gomedome
actually that is what all religious tomes (as far as I know) promote -- just what you are saying is needed.
problem is, people with their minds in the clouds of a remote heaven have disassociated themselves from the reality of the here and now that the prophetics have seen and have relayed to us.
The sayings of Jesus and the letters of Paul tell us that that we need to keep our minds set on this life -- on our surroundings -- that's what counts -- the future (whatever it is) will take care of itself if we will only take care of the here and now.
they persist is relying on things that have little validity.
And they seem to add their own ideas to the Bible, saying that it says thus and so when in reality it doesn't.
posted by
Xeno-x
on October 5, 2005 at 6:32 AM
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I'm glad you're not in charge!
I'd have to get used to my rubber room!
posted by
calebs_blogger
on October 4, 2005 at 8:15 PM
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calebs_blogger -- I don't know what to say to that kind of talk
From my perspective and if it were my decision, I would just put you in a straight jacket and leave you in a rubber room for awhile. With a little hope you would have time to see how elaborate your delusion has become, how intricate and how much detail has been filled in over a couple of millenia. An invisible being with a full set of rules that we have to accept whether we like it or not? No..I have a better idea. How about we begin teaching as many people as we can salvage, reality, self reliance and responsibility. Call them the "3 R's" if you like. Our other choice is to let the insanity continue, let mankind slip further into it's denominational divisions......I'll take door number 1 if you don't mind.
posted by
gomedome
on October 4, 2005 at 7:38 PM
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You take an earthly perspective
when you use your earthly standards to judge God as a "mean SOB." I grant that earthly standards are the only ones you recognize. However, if you could let go of that for a moment and try to look at from the spiritual side.
Its all about God, not about us. We were not put here for our own enjoyment. We were meant to glorify and worhip God. But.. God did not want a bunch of robots who uniformly praised Him all day long because they had no other choice. He wanted us to choose to accept Him. Then mankind exercized its choice and decided to sin. God is perfectly holy and doen't allow the unholy in heaven with Him. Somebody has to suffer for that sin. By the way, that's His perogative to dictate that to us. He gets to make the rules, not us. It doesn't matter if we think that's "fair" in 2005. But.. he gave us all a chance at a pardon. Jesus took our punishment in our place. If we'll accept Jesus as Savior, then God overlooks our sin (grace! my favorite word), accepts Jesus' suffering as if it was ours, declares us holy as if the sin never happend, and we're allowed to join Him in heaven as if we're completely spotless. From this point of view it is grace that is unfair... letting even one sinner into His perfectly holy presence. We sinners ALL deserve to perish! How unfair that God let me off-the-hook so easily and into heaven anyway...when it was His own Son who took all the punishment instead of me! I don't deserve this special treatment. How much more unfair can God be than to let a few billion sinners into heaven on a pardon.
So.... back to this earthly blog perspective..., I suppose anyone who doesn't accept that there absolutely is a God or that God's point of view is what matters or that He gets to decide and not us... then all this must seem terribly unfair.
posted by
calebs_blogger
on October 4, 2005 at 7:11 PM
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CB_Andrews -- we can argue nuances of definition all day long but
ultimately you are attempting to get me to re-gurgitate your dogma exactly as you have memorized it. You believe that Jesus is the only way to heaven, this puts you in a very select club amongst all humans. The catholics do not hold this belief, their version of Christianity is a little different. The Moslems believe something completely different, as do the Hindus, as do the Buddhists, as do any number of differing faiths. By this logic, only a small number of people will ever get to heaven in comparison to the earth's historic population. The numerical breakdown in estimated numbers is 105 billion people born onto this planet in all of history, less than a billion, or less than 1% hold your belief of Jesus being the only path to salvation. Lucky you...that's "chosen" if I ever heard the word. It's also ridiculous. It re-defines your God as one mean son of a bitch who cares little about those of different races and faiths.
posted by
gomedome
on October 4, 2005 at 4:16 PM
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gomey -- sorry they are dead
when they were active they were pretty good -- we'll h ave to find something like them -- there is somewhere you know.
they say basically that (I just mentioned it) the KJV was not translated directly from the original languages; but that it used as its source the Latin Vulgate (the extant version of the Bible at the time) -- there have been dozens of revisions over the centuries -- there are several passages where the KJV does not agree with the Greek -- one I know of is the passage in Matthew where the women come to the tomb where Jesus had been laid.
Although the Greek in this case states that they came "when the sun was setting", the KJV says "when the sun was rising". We understand why. when the sun was setting was the end of the Sabbath and work could be done then -- the women rushed there as soon as they were not disobeying the Sabbath strictures. The sun rising, though, would agree with the Easter morning tradition. So the translator in this case decided on the Christian tradition rather than the more likely sun setting scenario.
This is just a little information.
posted by
Xeno-x
on October 4, 2005 at 3:34 PM
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i liked it better
when you guys were arguing on my blog
i got the clicks (lol)
posted by
Xeno-x
on October 4, 2005 at 3:27 PM
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gomedome
we have to be thinking of the same definition of chosen. I see chosen as something you don't have to accept. If you are chosen to win a contest...you win. They don't say "nah, he's no good. Pick another one." They say, "and we have a winner...even though he never pays taxes and beats his kids...he's the winner of our contest." As it is with Heaven. I was not chosen to go to Heaven, I had to accept it. Think about it. There are probably murders, thieves and felons in Heaven. They weren't chosen to go to Heaven because they messed up. They accepted Jesus, by choice, and thus get the privledge to go to Heaven. They don't deserve it but they get to go. No Christain earns or deserves Heaven, he/she accepts it.
posted by
CB_Andrews
on October 4, 2005 at 3:23 PM
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gomedome
You are twisting the facts to suit you and what you think. Yes, I believe Jesus is the only way to get to Heaven. I am not chosen, however. I was not originally chosen to go to heaven. Heaven was earth, in the beginning, and as a result of the fall, Adam and Eve were banished. They were separated from God. But being the loving Father that he is, he sent Jesus, or God Himself, to die for what we did and what we were doing. Jesus bridges the gap between man and God. He never said "you are chosen," he said, "you have to believe in Jesus to go to Heaven." We are chosen to go to Heaven because we believe in Jesus. Why would I have to believe if I was chosen? If I were a "chosen one" I wouldn't have a choice. God gives us choice to reject him every day. That makes me...all of us non-Jews, chosen.
posted by
CB_Andrews
on October 4, 2005 at 3:17 PM
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CB_Andrews - the point is: that the same belief holds that those who do
not believe this, will not be saved. The belief therefore becomes one of exclusivity, as in heaven is reserved only for those who believe this way. That by definition is considering one's self or one's group as "chosen" by virtue of their beliefs. It's a re-curring theme throughout all monotheist religions, with adherants of same all thinking that they have been chosen or know the one true path to heaven.
posted by
gomedome
on October 4, 2005 at 3:08 PM
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gomedome
I never said I deserve it or no one else can have it. I believe it because God said it.
posted by
CB_Andrews
on October 4, 2005 at 3:01 PM
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gomedome
I do. What is your point?
posted by
CB_Andrews
on October 4, 2005 at 3:00 PM
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CB_Andrews -- do you or do you not think that salvation is only found
through Jesus Christ?
posted by
gomedome
on October 4, 2005 at 2:58 PM
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satan is singin soprano right about now
I put one in his bread basket last night.
posted by
calmcantey75
on October 4, 2005 at 2:55 PM
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gomedome
This makes Christian adherants the "chosen" people by definition..at least in their minds....you are so worried about what everyone else thinks. That is not how most Christians think. Most of us think they are blessed, lucky, and downright undeserving of salvation. We know we don't deserve salvation, but that it was a gift. I'm not speaking for all of us, but I'm sure glad you are.
posted by
CB_Andrews
on October 4, 2005 at 2:48 PM
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Xeno-x -- they are dead -- I just spent the last few minutes
trying to find them.
posted by
gomedome
on October 4, 2005 at 2:46 PM
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THE LINKS BELOW
looks like they're kaput
i'll look for more links
posted by
Xeno-x
on October 4, 2005 at 2:45 PM
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a couple of links of interest for those wanting the truth on King James
http://hector3000.future.easyspace.com/kjv.htm
http://hector3000.future.easyspace.com/byzantine.htm
VERY INTERESTING
posted by
Xeno-x
on October 4, 2005 at 2:39 PM
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i posted some about the King James -- i guess i gotta again.
so look for it maybe in a few minutes
posted by
Xeno-x
on October 4, 2005 at 2:33 PM
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CB_Andrews -- hardly - I'm fully aware of the dogmatic premise of the Jews
being the chosen people. Too bad that they fully reject the notion. Instead we are left today with a group of people that are willing to overlook this little inconsistancy, as well as overlooking the plight of countless billions of people of other faiths, to further a premise that has only those who accept Jesus Christ achieving eternal salvation. Too bad for the jews who reject him, too bad for the Moslems who do not accept him as saviour, too bad for the Hindus, too bad for,.... well ..everyone else. This makes Christian adherants the "chosen" people by definition..at least in their minds.
posted by
gomedome
on October 4, 2005 at 11:14 AM
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your bible rant
your Bible rant is a little screwed up...Jews were are the chosen people, not Christians.
posted by
CB_Andrews
on October 4, 2005 at 10:04 AM
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