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GoldenMean -- I used that exact line on a radio phone-in show
but then added "for better or worse, everyone who is a legal citizen of this country gets the exact same deal"
posted by
gomedome
on October 3, 2005 at 9:22 AM
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renigade3 -- the reality is that nothing much changes in a society that
allows same sex marriage. All of the slippery slope arguments that have entertained us for the last few years, such as people wanting to marry farm animals etc., are all just nonsense.
posted by
gomedome
on October 3, 2005 at 9:21 AM
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UsualSuspect - thank you -- if you can imagine I was getting a bit tired of
listening to people telling us how to live our lives according their "do as I say , not as I do" mentality.
posted by
gomedome
on October 3, 2005 at 9:17 AM
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CB_Andrews -- at this point you are becoming a nuisance
You are welcome to comment on my postings but not comment after comment after comment. Organize your thoughts and try to encapsultate them and I want to make one thing especially clear.... My email is not intended for you to discuss your religion. Do not email me again with subject matter that can be discussed in the comments section. As for your comments, let us take a quick look at one of your last ones.
How dare you say something such as this to another person.
"I realize you said you have no precepts of your own, but if you were leaning toward secular humanism, you might want to re-think it."
There is more than subtle difference between suggesting that I have not adopted one complete set of life guiding precepts from any specific religion and not having any precepts of my own. Do you have any idea what the term "respect for the beliefs of others" means? It does not mean that you suggest they re-think their values, it also does not mean that they must align with your beliefs.
posted by
gomedome
on October 3, 2005 at 9:14 AM
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Bravo-
This is a great post and well-written. I was raised in the bible belt as a southern baptist...I can understand why divorce is so rampant among this particular group. Hypocrisy is another common trait among this group which would lead one to believe that these folks are happy to tell you all day long just how screwed-up and unholy YOU are while all along they are the greatest worst offenders of "holy law". "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" I always say.
posted by
UsualSuspect
on October 3, 2005 at 7:02 AM
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I support same-sex marriage for one reason only...
The "gays" have a God-given right to be just as miserable as the rest of us!
posted by
GoldenMean
on October 3, 2005 at 3:54 AM
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Oh, yeah...And I'm Christian...
posted by
Renigade
on October 3, 2005 at 3:38 AM
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As long as my husband doesn't have to start wearing a dress, I really
don't care who marries whom. Although his butt might look cute in one...
posted by
Renigade
on October 3, 2005 at 3:37 AM
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secular humanism
I realize you said you have no precepts of your own, but if you were leaning toward secular humanism, you might want to re-think it. I have no problems with it as far as the morals, to treat others right and help others. It's the objective part, and the no mysticism or faith part that gets me. and this is the way it's going to go. These people who can say 2+2=7 are going to get in power, and screw up worse than Bush or Kerry ever could. Secular Humanism can lead to communism if not careful. If enough people in power are "objective" than no one else will have a choice, really. They will determine what is right and wrong based on what they feel, not what they believe.
posted by
CB_Andrews
on October 2, 2005 at 11:18 PM
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secular humanism
it says it looks for "objective truth" or answers to put it another way...that is an oxymoron. how is it TRUTH if it is OBJECTIVE? Truth has to be absolute. For example, by secular humanist logic, I could say 2+2=7 when we all know it is 4. But objective says it's 7. So do you want secular humanist teachers teaching your kids this "new math"? It already is happening. In some states, objective teaching is allowed. If the class decides as a whole that 2+2=7, then it is 7. Is this who we want running the world?
posted by
CB_Andrews
on October 2, 2005 at 11:13 PM
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secular humanism
my biggest problem with secular humanism is not that it's an "opponent" or "satan", but that it glorifies man's achievments and not God's. It looks for the good of "I" not "we", to a full extent. There is no faith involved, which is not even fun for me let alone something I can agree with. It says that it is not based on faith, but on action. It also says that it is constantly looking for answers, but if there is no faith, then what answers are you looking for? they won't be answered if you have no faith in what you are looking for.
posted by
CB_Andrews
on October 2, 2005 at 11:01 PM
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secular humanism
I feel the biggest problem with secular humanism is that it says it is not a religion, but there are secualr humanist churches that want to be tax-exempt, like churches are. if they are not a religion, they do not get to be tax exempt, by law. this is why they call it an enemy. and not even "most of them" say it is satan is imposing this world view. that is embellished and amplified to suit the opposing view.
posted by
CB_Andrews
on October 2, 2005 at 10:57 PM
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I am not at a disadvantage
I am well aware of what secular humanism is. I have Mind Seige and the Battle For Truth, two very well respected books by Dr. David Noble and Tim LaHaye. I know the whole world-view thing. I've heard a week long discussion by Dr. Noble discussing that very topic. He is a very good speaker, and has debated and won over secular humanists (college professors with PHD's) in universities. Dr. Noble is very respected, even by people in the field of secular humanism. So I know a little more than you think. I know what you are saying. What I am saying is that I feel you have stopped searching. I feel that you aren't as familiar with the doctrines as you say or think you are.
posted by
CB_Andrews
on October 2, 2005 at 10:52 PM
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CB_Andrews -- you are at a slight disadvantage
I have a fairly extensive background in your religion and am familiar with it's underlying precepts and doctrines. Where I do not adhere to any specific set of precepts other than my own, the link below will offer a bit of insight. I have to go now.
http://www.blogit.com/Blogs/Blog.aspx/gomedome/299088
posted by
gomedome
on October 2, 2005 at 10:41 PM
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gomedome
I still feel that same-sex marriage is not the issue with you. I would love to continue this discussion further. Now, I don't want to understand your views on sex and marriage and gay and straight, I want to understand your views on life. I want to know why you think the way you think, and vice versa. This is getting very interesting and in-depth. You are very persuasive and thurough in your arguments and I have a huge respect for that. Just understand that I doing this as a fellow member of the human race, because I care. I don't want to put you down or try to make you feel guilty at all. This is not my intention and if I have done so I apologize. But please understand that those who have wronged you are human. Christians aren't perfect, by any means, and we all still have a long way to go. There are plenty of other people in the world who have wronged you too, and they aren't Christains. It has happened, I know it has. Just understand Christianity and what it's supposed to be. I refused to doit for too long, and was so angry and confused, but feel a little better about life now. Becoming a Christian didn't make all my problems go away, but it helped. Understand that.
posted by
CB_Andrews
on October 2, 2005 at 10:15 PM
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eastern time zone
i am in michigan for school so I am in the eastern time zone as well, but let's finish up real quick, just this last post
posted by
CB_Andrews
on October 2, 2005 at 10:03 PM
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gomedome
if you are going to put down christianity...do research. You are basing your view on they way christains have treated you, rather then researching the topic for yourself. Let me enlighten you.
We are called "Christians" as a derogatory term, to begin with. They were called that when they were persecuted. Christains were originally called "The Way" or "Followers of the Way". And they followed Jesus Christ, who was the son of God, but also God incarnate. He was God. They called him the Son of God because he took human form. Now, Jesus was persecuated for his claims. He was also persecuted for eating and talking to prostitutes and crooked tax collectors. He treated them, if not equal, better than felow believers. Does this sound like someone who would discriminate? Now as I said, there are Christains out there who have got it backward and need help. But don't base the whole religion on a few wrongs that have been done to you, like I did.
posted by
CB_Andrews
on October 2, 2005 at 10:01 PM
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CB_Andrews -- I live in the eastern time zone and will be going to bed soon
Tomorow I will answer your last two comments in a post but first, I am not an expert on your state's marriage laws but if there are no children involved in a dissolved marriage, the split is not necessarily in favour of the wife. You will find that to be true if you were to investigate it.
posted by
gomedome
on October 2, 2005 at 10:01 PM
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gomedome
and no, i don't take them for granted. I am a newly wed and a college student as is my wife. How could I take them for granted?
posted by
CB_Andrews
on October 2, 2005 at 9:53 PM
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so a same sex couple needs legal rights to put a down payment on a house? so what if they get divorced? in a same-sex marriage, the law intercedes for the WIFE. WHO IS THE WIFE IN A SAME SEX MARRIAGE? Also, my religion has not failed, by any means, and I will fight that to my grave. Why has it failed?
Also, you still didn't answer my question. Yes I believe marriage is inherent from God. But you do you think it is inherent from. You seem to be dodging this issue left and right.
And again, I am not saying it is a sin. Sin is not subjective, as I pointed out and as you so anxiously read over. I said, sin is sin..."murder is the same as stealing". IT IS NOT SUBJECTIVE TO ANYONE. I can't say sin is this for one person but not for another. As I said also, I sin every day. I am in the same boat as everyone else. I simply believe in the Bible, and follow what it says. I'm not trying to attack you or put you down, so stop getting defensive.
posted by
CB_Andrews
on October 2, 2005 at 9:51 PM
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mysteria -- as usual you are too kind
I'm going to put you into my link rotator script (right hand column of my blog). I change the order of rotation periodically.
posted by
gomedome
on October 2, 2005 at 9:46 PM
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GomeDome
Lots of strong points. Logic is your co-writer. Thanks for the treat of your insight. Gomerocks!
posted by
mysteria
on October 2, 2005 at 9:42 PM
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CB_Andrews -- This is the entire problem in a nutshell
"Now...marriage is an inherent right...inherent from whom? Christians believe inherent from God. So did the founding members of the United States."
By this logic you would have all citizens live their lives based on your beliefs. Sorry but you can count me out immediately. As for the legal protections, the minute you said "I do" you were enveloped by numerous legal rights and responsibilities that I can see by your questions, you take completely for granted. For example: If you put a downpayment on a house and begin payments with the help of your significant other contributing funds, time and effort to paying for the house, even if it is entirely in your name, you marriage contract intercedes on behalf of your wife if the marriage is dissolved. Not so with a same sex couple who is not protected by the marriage contract. That is but one example of countless.
"We are taught to hate the sin, not the sinner" ...who the hell are you to decide what is a sin for another person? I don't even use the word sin and as for your suggestion that: "...the Bible teaches us not to view anyone as second class...we are to treat each other as equals...." who do you think you are peddling this bill of goods to? Your religion routinely not only teaches discrimination based on your beliefs but proliferates them at every oppurtunity. The teaching and the reality are two completely different things. I know that your intent was not to lace your comment with insulting innuendo but nonetheless there will come a time when people such as yourself will realize that you are attempting to do nothing more than extend your beliefs onto others. To have them live their lives as you believe they should......I have to say no thanks on that one. Your way has failed miserably for too many centuries.
posted by
gomedome
on October 2, 2005 at 9:40 PM
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gomedome
you never told me what legal protections or financial help you spoke of either. What legal protections do same sex marrigaes have?
posted by
CB_Andrews
on October 2, 2005 at 9:35 PM
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gomedome
So, same sex marriages should be treated equally. That's fine. So why do homosexuals want to have parades and celebrate the fact that they are homosexual, but then ask to be treated equal? Equal isn't something you have to earn, in my eyes. They seem to think it is. So they should get equal rights. We are given rights, we didn't earn them. I get tired of people saying "i have the right, i have the right". No, you've been given the right, as you said. But I don't think they should be able to get married to begin with. I don't agree with the idea of same-sex marriage itself. I do think that they should have rights as any other marriage,should they get married, but as I said, I disagree with the sin and not the sinner. And if how it will effect divorce is irrelevent, then why was that such a prominent topic in your first post. You seemed to jump all over the topic of divorce at the very beginning. Now, would you answer the questions I asked you before? You said "inherent rights." You suggest people inherit rights, not earn them. So, who do these inherent rights come from?
posted by
CB_Andrews
on October 2, 2005 at 9:30 PM
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CB_Andrews - I'm not going to answer the same question again
It is not about how it will affect divorce, that is irrelevent, it is about extending the same rights to all individuals. Everyone who is a member of society gets the same deal. Besides it's a dead issue in my country as it has been legal for quite awhile and ratified by our supreme court just a few months ago. It is now indellably written into our charter of rights and freedoms....and you know what? All of the slippery slope scenarios that those who would oppose it suggest are inevatible aren't happening. Life goes on, with the only difference being a very small percentage of our citizens can now do a bit of financial planning and have legal protections that they didn't have before.
posted by
gomedome
on October 2, 2005 at 9:16 PM
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gomedome
again...i asked if same sex marriage will have no effect on divorce and what not, then why allow it?
posted by
CB_Andrews
on October 2, 2005 at 9:03 PM
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The point of even considering to allow it is that a portion of society is denied access to some of the inherent rights as found in marriage. Planning and building a life with a same sex partner can be a financial maze without the legal protections that are routinely found in a marriage contract. That is what it is about first and foremost. Inclusion is the key element. Defining all encompassing rights that include every oxygen breathing tax payer.
This brings me to a question that you asked earlier in what is my beef with Christianity? I am immediately branded a second class citizen within a Christian influenced society and if you were to ask a gay person, apparently I'm not the only one. (what you said)
Now...marriage is an inherent right...inherent from whom? Christians believe inherent from God. So did the founding members of the United States. George Bush doesn't have it all figured out. I'm not even a fan of Bush, to put that out there. Second, same sex marriages are not allowed legal protections? What legal protections? Third, I don't view you as a second class citizen, and the Bible teaches us not to view anyone as second class...we are to treat each other as equals, and if you have been wronged a few time, I am sorry. We are taught to hate the sin, not the sinner. As far as that goes, I sin everyday...and God views sin as sin...murder is no worse than telling a lie in God's eyes. The legal consequences may be different, but muderers can still go to heaven, according to what we are taught. So I am no better than you or a murderer, or someone who is gay. We had a huge discussion in Sunday school on this very topic..."holier than thou Christains..." So let me tell you that I care for you as a person, and that God loves you just the same as he does me.
posted by
CB_Andrews
on October 2, 2005 at 8:59 PM
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CB_Andrews -- you are covering a lot of issues in a few sentences
In Sweden they have created a welfare state mentality where an individual is much better off in terms of health care, possibly housing and even effective income (disposable income after living expenses) if on government assistance, versus holding a low paying job. Do you think that maybe this might have something to do with a trend that has couples elevate the importance of childbirth above that of marital union?
Now you ask how will same sex marriage help marriage in general? No one is making that contention that I know of aside from the likelyhood of it having absolutely no effect on existing marriage trends. The point of even considering to allow it is that a portion of society is denied access to some of the inherent rights as found in marriage. Planning and building a life with a same sex partner can be a financial maze without the legal protections that are routinely found in a marriage contract. That is what it is about first and foremost. Inclusion is the key element. Defining all encompassing rights that include every oxygen breathing tax payer.
This brings me to a question that you asked earlier in what is my beef with Christianity? I am immediately branded a second class citizen within a Christian influenced society and if you were to ask a gay person, apparently I'm not the only one.
posted by
gomedome
on October 2, 2005 at 8:46 PM
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hemlocker
what do you mean by your comment?
posted by
CB_Andrews
on October 2, 2005 at 8:41 PM
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gome--
Unreasonable beliefs and expectations usually lead to a fall. Hemlocker
posted by
Hemlocker
on October 2, 2005 at 8:38 PM
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gomedome
I have nothing against homosexuals, just homosexuality. Yet, I don't feel this is even the issue with you. I think the issue is your anger with Christians. I'm not trying to psycho-analyze here, just trying to understand where you are coming from. I wasn't always a Christain, either. I wasn't one until 2 years ago. I was pretty much against them, to be honest. And this is no lie, either. I'd really like to hear your story, and maybe I can help you. You seem to have a lot of passion and angst for things...a lot of energy. Maybe I can help shed some light on this.
posted by
CB_Andrews
on October 2, 2005 at 8:35 PM
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oops
and allow same sex marriage? What is that going to solve? In Denmark, same sex marrige is allowed but very few take advantage of it.
posted by
CB_Andrews
on October 2, 2005 at 8:32 PM
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gomedome
I'm not suggesting that a minority of same-sex couples who marry could destroy marrige...I'm simply saying that marriage is declining, I'll admit that. And I'll even admit that yes, there are Christains out there who have messed up, and have set a bad precident for others to follow, as well as a bad example to others. So why take it a step further and
It has been shown as well that in Scandinavia marriage is not a big event like it used to be. Couples get married, have a kid, and divorce, since they learn they can make it on their own financially. The mark of maturity has moved from getting married to having a baby...couples do that and then it's over. So why is same sex marriage going to solve or at least be better than the norm?
posted by
CB_Andrews
on October 2, 2005 at 8:30 PM
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CB_Andrews -- of course my post has an agenda and as anyone putting words
to print to illustrate a point, I could be as guilty of distorting the truth as the next guy but not knowingly or intentionally. When you ask "....why dismantle marriage any further?" what do you mean by this? Surely you are not suggesting that the inclusion of a small group into the institution of marriage threatens a majority group?
posted by
gomedome
on October 2, 2005 at 8:20 PM
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gomedome
so perhaps you could ask yourself that same question..do you sense an agenda in your research?
posted by
CB_Andrews
on October 2, 2005 at 8:11 PM
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in my opinion...
since marrige and family are already in danger...why dismantle marriage any further? And I have found that Christian marriages are just as likely to end in divorce, not leading. The article you had never said what kind, circumstance, how often they attend church, read the Bible, it just said "christian couples"
posted by
CB_Andrews
on October 2, 2005 at 8:10 PM
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gomedome
they are basing the article on projections, as many other surveys and such do....when they get percentages, they interview or base it of off 100 people and relate that to millions, so yes, the facts are going to be a little skewed. The articles sites many other authors and anylists as well.
posted by
CB_Andrews
on October 2, 2005 at 8:06 PM
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CB_Andrews -- In reading what I think you are offering as a refutation
do you not see something a little suspicious? (That is aside from using a newspaper article to refute statistics.) I'll give you a hint. Gays do not make up any more than a single digit percentage of the earth's populace, concentrated urban areas chosen for lifestyle aside, it is not likely that they make up more than 7 or 8% of the populace of the countries being discussed in the article. Are the remaining 92% of the populace so retarded that they would let such a small group influence the most important aspect of their lives in their marriage traditions?....do you sense an agenda in the article perhaps?
posted by
gomedome
on October 2, 2005 at 8:01 PM
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gomedome
to be honest, I really would love to hear why you seem so against christians.
posted by
CB_Andrews
on October 2, 2005 at 7:58 PM
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gomedome
and just 'cuz you own suits older than me doesn't make you old...as far as you know I'm 50 and as far as I know you're 15. I clothes that are older than me too, man.
posted by
CB_Andrews
on October 2, 2005 at 7:58 PM
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gomedome
age has nothing to do with it...if we were both ivy league scholars on our topics we wouldn't be online in a blog chating about this...so i'm not that intimidated.
posted by
CB_Andrews
on October 2, 2005 at 7:56 PM
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CB_Andrews --- that's the spirit
but I have to warn you that I own suits older than you.
posted by
gomedome
on October 2, 2005 at 7:51 PM
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gomedome
just don't think about the fact that you have had some bad experiences with Christians, and if you can't maybe we can discuss them and I can shed some light on them for you. for the record i go to a bible college and have attended seminars and lectures on worldviews and such...so this could get pretty nasty! just ask we keep it clean, and respectful.
posted by
CB_Andrews
on October 2, 2005 at 7:51 PM
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gomedome
it takes a lot to offend me and i think i have some pretty strong arguments, so let 'er rip my friend.
posted by
CB_Andrews
on October 2, 2005 at 7:49 PM
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same sex marriage
from the indianapolis star..."The equivalent of same sex marriage has been legal for more than a decade in Scandinavia, and the verdict is in - same sex marriage has eroded the already rusty link between marriage and family."......"Marriage is so out of fashion in Denmark, Norway and Sweden that couples often get married in secret to avoid persecution. Even more surprising, few homosexuals are taking advantage of same-sex unions. The hetero and homo-sexual marrige pool has become so shrivled so much that marriage and divorce statistics are difficult to interpret."....."Author Stanley Kurtz says 'marriage is no longer seen as a precurser to parenthood. When heterosexual marrige is no longer seen as the norm, and marriage and parenthood are no longer seen as going hand in hand, married parenthood becomes an oddity."
posted by
CB_Andrews
on October 2, 2005 at 7:47 PM
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CB_Andrews -- that is not a problem
I only respond in kind ....but the question remains as to whether or not you can handle some of the things you are likely to read in this posting.
posted by
gomedome
on October 2, 2005 at 7:45 PM
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repsect..
I'm not demanding respect, I'm asking for it and telling you I will give you the same in return...and yes, there are Christains who put off a bad vibe, which you have experienced apparently, but I'm here to tell you that they are misled and misguided. So just give me the same respect you would want me to give you.
posted by
CB_Andrews
on October 2, 2005 at 7:39 PM
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gotcha...
I see now that you said 'country to country'...but I have heard some totally different stats on marrige/divorce. My wife did some research...I'll type it on my next comment...
posted by
CB_Andrews
on October 2, 2005 at 7:38 PM
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CB_Andrews -- what planet have you been living on?
You are demanding a respect that should be afforded all individuals but unfortunately doing so as a member of a societal group that has a pretty lousy track record at reciprocating.
posted by
gomedome
on October 2, 2005 at 7:35 PM
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CB_Andrews - you've only re-iterated what I said in this posting
I did suggest it is difficult to compare marriage dissolution rates from country to country and considering the sources of information is exactly the point.
posted by
gomedome
on October 2, 2005 at 7:31 PM
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same sex marriage
also, i don't appreciate you calling it "a joke" because it's not a joke to me. I won't thump you with a Bible, either. I'll have a good discussion with ya, but I won't thump ya. I will defend my faith, just as you would defend yours, but I will not put you down at all, so please don't do this to any believers here.
posted by
CB_Andrews
on October 2, 2005 at 7:31 PM
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same sex marriage
funny because I heard completley different facts...Denmark and Sweden and such don't value marriage as much as the U.S. used to...not many people there even get married. Out-of-wed-lock children are born all the time there, even more so than the U.S. I agree that there are gay couples that could probably do it better than straight couples, but not to the extreme you put it. And I disagree that conservative Christians are leading the way, totally. I have heard a lot of opposite facts as you. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I think we should consider our sources.
posted by
CB_Andrews
on October 2, 2005 at 7:26 PM
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