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And there's another difference
between "Christians" and "athiests." Some of us are just (because of the behaviors of confused and misled-by-dogma followers of a particular sect) anti-church.
posted by
Pat_B
on September 30, 2005 at 11:35 AM
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majroj -- you have made a good point without realizing it
The question you ask is something that has been going through my mind a lot today. Just what the hell am I doing with my time? Spending hours online accomplishing precious little other than making a few bucks and annoying a few people. I think that this past year has shown me (again) that I am not ready for full retirement. Goofing off has been fun but now my brain is falling asleep.
posted by
gomedome
on September 29, 2005 at 8:40 PM
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What do you do with your time nowadays?
Crikey, statistics crunching.
You oughta be dropping fliers all over our Gulf coast, bound to be some sales there.
posted by
majroj
on September 29, 2005 at 7:29 PM
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GoldenMean -- I've decided to answer your comment in a post
posted by
gomedome
on September 29, 2005 at 6:40 AM
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majroj - very true and I treated the numbers with caution at first until
I was able to match Canadian numbers (where turning to God while incarcerated holds little weight in parole decisions) and US numbers from those who had been charged but were not yet sentenced. There was no indication of anonimity of participants in the polls of both US or Canadian prisoners, which may in fact lend credence to the idea of skewed numbers but the poll of those who had been charged and not yet sentenced was an anonomous poll. Across the board the numbers were consistent. Always less than .5% incarceration rate for non believers.
posted by
gomedome
on September 29, 2005 at 6:15 AM
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I am certain the demographics for the U.S. would be different.
And I'm certain in any society that the inmates would lie and claim affilitations they think would convey some sort of advantage.
posted by
majroj
on September 29, 2005 at 4:30 AM
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confusion seems to abound
By all means respect other beliefs, but put some effort into acknowledging your own. It seems clear to me that atheists are NOT non-believers. That category, by definition, belongs to the "agnostic" label. Atheists, in general, most definitely have their belief in a particular scenario of reality. They accept the physical, and reject the metaphysical. In that sense, their minds are just as closed as the religious believers they accuse of closed minds.
Atheism, in general, does not realize that many (most) people actually NEED religious belief for their emotional and intellectual growth, as slow as that growth may seem. Likewise, atheists need their atheist beliefs for their own growth. Atheism has not yet found the right arguments to help people grow out of their need for religion; indeed atheists don't seem to be looking for such arguments. They angrily attack the symptoms rather than compassionately try to cure the disease. But that is understandable, for atheism is part of the "disease" of belief, itself. The sick cannot heal the sick.
That is a bad metaphor. Belief is not a disease, it is a stage of growth. But when it becomes a stagnation rather than a stage, it can fester like a disease, and become very destructive.
posted by
GoldenMean
on September 28, 2005 at 9:57 PM
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ariel70 -- I responded to your comment in a posting
posted by
gomedome
on September 28, 2005 at 7:11 PM
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mysteria -- you inadvetantly hit on a good point
It may be eaiser to establish a new term for non believers, that does not automatically draw a mental image by default, than it is overcoming 2 millenia of conditioning. Maybe we could begin calling athiests the "freedom people" as in those who don't go to prison as much as the rest of society.....no, better not rub it in.
posted by
gomedome
on September 28, 2005 at 5:54 PM
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Pat_B -- I have to agree that there is an automatic association made
between athiesm and evil or the devil. All a product of planned misinformation and it's accompanying ignorance. It amazes me how easily this misconception is proliferated and by people that really do think that they are somehow doing a good thing by advancing these erroneous ideas.
posted by
gomedome
on September 28, 2005 at 5:35 PM
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Mysteria
Words have a literal meaning and a colloquial one ; the one that possibly departs from its literal meaning, but is understood by all. English abounds with such words, so the word atheist should have its colloquial, not its literal meaning ; for then it becomes meaningless. Perhaps we atheists ought to invent another name for ourselves.
it is people, not athesists who runs all contemporary societies people of all religions and none.
I don't for a moment accuse you of it, but I do wish that Christians would cease to endow us with their own preconceived notions of what we are ; what we believe and don't believe ; how we perceive them and their religion, and how we act.
This is futile and highly misleading stereotyping, that can only perpetuate divisions in society. Antone stating that all Germans, British, or whatever are thus and thus, and think in this way would rightly be laughed to scorn ; or rightly called a racist. So why do Christians treat us in that manner?
I don't share their beliefs, but I respect them ; and I wish that they would accord me and my views the same respect
posted by
ariel70
on September 28, 2005 at 9:24 AM
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I don't like the term atheist because by default
it associates itself with religion. As in "atheist" ,"anti-theist", "anti-religious". Aside from picking at semantics, I think I can separate myself from my impression of the word and use it in an objective fashion. In that way I have no problem being called an atheist.
I see it again. To be an atheist and to call oneself an atheist is a contradiction. I mean if you don't believe in religion, why would you even care to acknowledge it? Especially by naming your philosophy after it?
Always interesting reading. Thought poking and provoking. Thanks for shedding good light about. Goodness knows we are short on it.
posted by
mysteria
on September 28, 2005 at 9:14 AM
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One problem is
most religious folks equate athiesm with the devil. You don't believe in god so you must be evil. I don't know that I'm an athiest -- There's that sneakin' suspicion that the universe and its machinations aren't just random, and that God exists, and could certainly have created this system and all the basics of science, could have given mankind the intelligence to figure out cause and effect, and the ability to choose life-giving or destructive behaviors. Whether or not the god we've conceived is just or loving or out to get us, it seems clear that fighting among ourselves about it is counter-productive.
posted by
Pat_B
on September 28, 2005 at 7:46 AM
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majroj -- I think confession is the key element
Allowing someone to wipe the slate clean with little effort almost promotes crime. It becomes a bye of sorts. Having the notion in the back of your mind that confession will get you off of the hook for the state of your afterlife removes the one punishment that believers are tryig to avoid. I should also say that 75,000 inmates is a relatively small sampling and that figures in Canada broke down in a simular manner as did a poll of those charged with crimes but not incarcerated yet. In the three sets of figures that I looked at, the dogans and the protestants were pretty well neck and neck .......which may account for regional differences in the population.
posted by
gomedome
on September 28, 2005 at 5:06 AM
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Odd. The greatest percentage of people where I work grouped by religion
would be classed together as "baptist/pentecostal/evangelical", by background and maybe through jailhouse conversion (pray in jail, play in "the world"). If you sliver off the different "flavors" of these (minute doctrinal differences, interpersonal power struggles between congregations causing schisms) though, they fall apart into many little churches; re-configure them by similarity of overall beliefs, and they form a very large percentage.
There are jaijlhouse advantages to being Catholic, also, those being locally recognized religious holidays, access to priests (how many counties hire a buddhist priest or jail rabbi?), and confession.
posted by
majroj
on September 27, 2005 at 11:10 PM
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