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Hmmm, interesting.
So . . . xeno-x, how do you determine which part of the Bible is fallible, and which, in your opinion, is bedrock truth?
posted by
JanesOpinion
on September 30, 2005 at 6:10 PM
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it's the Christ of the New Testament
the teachings and spirit of that Christ.
posted by
Xeno-x
on September 30, 2005 at 7:27 AM
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So who is Christ to you?
Is it Jesus -- the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world? The One who said I am The way, The truth, The life, NO ONE comes to the Father but by me?
Or is it the New Age Christ one hears about who is this squishy, lovey anything goes, Christ of all religions?
There's a huge difference! I'd like to know which one YOU believe in!
posted by
JanesOpinion
on September 30, 2005 at 4:35 AM
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many non-Christians
are following Christ a whole lot better than
many Christians
posted by
Xeno-x
on September 29, 2005 at 5:13 PM
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Christ -- the Ultimate Truth
is there.
But men's writings are just fuzzy attempts at attempting to recognize this Ultimate Truth.
I mentioned Ultimate Truth in another of my blogs, if you would like to peruse it.
It is there.
We are on a voyage toward it.
any writing involved with it is just attempting to maneuver to move morer directly toward it.
even the Bible.
much of the Bible can be disputed.
But the several passages I referred to cannot.
posted by
Xeno-x
on September 29, 2005 at 5:12 PM
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OK, so let me get this straight -- this is a bit strange.
Christ never changes, but because you only believe bits and pieces of the Bible, you're going to choose your own truth based on what YOU want to believe? And you've determined your OWN truth based on research from a variety of other tomes because you think the Bible is errant and incomplete? So it's up to YOU to find the truth and extrapolate from whichever book you think is most accurate? So much for the inspired Word of God, eh? Some humans have decided that they know more, that they know THE truth. So when the Biblical writers referred to the Bible as "God breathed" (i.e. inspired), your comeback is that God or the writer is a liar?
You made a statement, xenox, that many who are not Christians, but are moving towards the light, are true Christians (or words to that effect). So obviously, the WORDS OF JESUS HIMSELF ARE DEEMED FALSE BY YOU? You may recall that Jesus said "I am THE way, THE truth, THE light, no man comes to the Father but by me." So, let me see, is that part of the Bible YOU'VE deemed to be false? Inaccurate? The translation misinterpreted during the dark ages?
I agree with you that a person must seek with all his heart. That's a Biblical idea. But I really question whether God had in mind that we are to seek through other religions, New Age stuff, Hinduism, etc, to find God.
posted by
JanesOpinion
on September 28, 2005 at 5:02 PM
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I agree
that Christ never changes -- the ultimate truth (what is truth?) that is.
But people's perception of the Ultimate Truth (most elusive) does.
"We see in part; we know in part."
There's a light "The light shines in the darkness and the darkness comprehends it not."
It shines continually; hoswever, people's ideas cause great clouds of obscurity (we see "through a glass, darkly", that is, an obscuring glass) to rise between that light and other people.
It is these ideas that I am talking about.
The Bible is a record of some of those ideas. It is also one among many tomes searching for that light and giving instruction as to how to get there. What that light is, that is.
But God speaks "here a little, there a little", "with halting lips and stammering tongue" -- in parables, if you will. OUt of this huge tome of Hebrew and Christian scripture, only a few passages are really valid for the ordering of a life.
While medievalists argued over how many angels would fit on the head of a pin, or over transubstantiation, the really important matters were mainly overlooked.
Exodus 20, the Two Great Commandments, the Sermon on the Mount, Hebrews 13, The Golden Rule, I John, chapter 3, where the writers states "how can one love God whom he has not seen when he cannot love his brother whom he has seen."
These can all fit into a few pages of print.
However, the experience of attempting to live by them is infinite.
Any religion, philosophy, or personal viewpoint that pursues the spirit of these has to be valid "he who is not against me is for me.", for it moves toward that Light.
Any religious paradigm that emphasizes other than this is not really valid, for it is nvolved with the affairs of this world.
I would say of many of the major religions on this globe that, as John the Baptist said to the religious leaders of his day who had come to his baptizing, "You say you have Abraham for your father (you say that you are of the Christian heritage), but I say to you that God is able to raise up children of Abraham (Christians) from the stones at your feet.
I don't know if you can understand this. I say that many who are not Christians or of any religion are moving better toward that light -- are seeing it more clearly because the fog of religion is not in the way.
Christianity should itself disperse the fog that it holds on to.
"A rich man (person with possessions) can hardly enter the Kingdom of Heaven (Spiritual Realms -- state of mind, etc.) -- it is easier for a camel to crawl through the sheep gate (eye of a needle) than it is for a rich man (person of possessions) to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
Christianity has to shed the possessions that keep it and others from the Kingdom.
Like the Pharisees, "you encompass the whole earth to make one acolyte and, when you have done so, you make him more of a child of the devil that you have ever been."
drop the stumbling stones -- the impediments to reaching true Paradise.
posted by
Xeno-x
on September 27, 2005 at 7:33 AM
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I disagree, but of course that's nothing new . . .
Christ never changes! It's we who change and are fickle, with ideas and beliefs that change depending on the way the wind blows, the "time of the month," what side of bed we fell out of, etc. If that's evolution, no thanks!
posted by
JanesOpinion
on September 27, 2005 at 4:27 AM
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Xeno -
I'm in your corner. Everything evolves. Religion evolves as man evolves in his understanding of the ultimate truth - hough many refuse to evolve because of the fear of retribution from their God. As Avant said, any belief can be shattered through questioning - until the ultimate truth is discovered.
posted by
sannhet
on September 26, 2005 at 7:01 PM
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All men believe in something.
Even atheists believe in atheism. We cannot function without direction and our beliefs are what provide us direction. Expanded communication abilities, like electronic media, will facilitate more concerted belief systems.
posted by
telemachus
on September 26, 2005 at 5:59 PM
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xeno
i read once where any belief can be shattered through questioning.
posted by
avant-garde
on September 26, 2005 at 5:08 PM
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My turn to
compliment you this time, Rame. Very nicely put in a few words.
I might add that the "dark ages" is a phrase that describes that period after the fall of Rome to the barbarians and the end of the Pax Romana in Europe. It was the Church that managed to hold on to Greek and Roman literature and learning during that period.
posted by
lahip
on September 26, 2005 at 4:45 PM
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Xeno-x,
You make some very interesting points and you make them well, however, I have to disagree with you a little. First, religion, Christian or otherwise, doesn't have to change or evolve. Christ, hiimself, founded the Church and Christ/God does not change, ever. Churches that change to attract new members or to keep the current membes happy, well, that is a human driven church, but THE Church which Christ founded need never change. We must conform toGod's wishes, not Him to ours.
Thanks for the discussion I'm sure you've started between a bunch of bloggers. It will be interesting to see all the different opinions on this.
posted by
RAME
on September 26, 2005 at 4:05 PM
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