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Gome
That's all that can be expected of you. Thanks
posted by
Lensman
on September 27, 2005 at 5:30 PM
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Ariala -- That is where I thought you were coming from --- I am of the same
mind as you are. That pope that croaked back in the early 70's and then got wisked away to the morgue within hours was mighty suspicious. And I have seen some attrocious acts completely covered up firsthand, including the suicide of young nuns but I cannot say that I have anything concrete....But in support of not putting anything past them....People generally tend to forget that this organization has been a law unto itself for centuries, without impunity and beyond reproach. No one is going to tell me that righteousness is going to always win over human nature.
posted by
gomedome
on September 27, 2005 at 2:26 PM
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Gome, not sure how much of it goes on and what's real or just stuff
you read in books. There's a lot of hearsay, but personally, I believe there's more truth to the allegations than not. If I've learned one thing about that institution is that they cover up everything from sexual abuse to their own history as an organization...sorry, but there's not much I don't believe when it comes to them.
posted by
Ariala
on September 27, 2005 at 2:03 PM
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Lensman -- so now you have gained another perspective
From a person who witnessed it all firsthand. Never a victim myself and conceding that my perspective is the revisionist snapshot of a child, I do try to balance my inherent loathing with a consideration for those who do not deserve such disdain.....but it ain't easy.
posted by
gomedome
on September 27, 2005 at 8:40 AM
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Gome
Here's the thing. I'm very much aware of the Canadian scandals involving the Catholic Church. Mount Cashel in Newfoundland and Alfred, Ontario, come to mind immediately. I've returned my home province of British Columbia now, but I did live in Ontario for 20 years, working in the justice system. In fact, I was involved in the trials of those Christian brothers in Alfred. It was a lengthy, in-depth process, so I got a close-up look at what exactly was going on there. You're quite right, the Church is complicit in their crimes by shuffling the perpetrators rather than seeing to their immediate prosecution. There's no excuse for that, but I believe that way of dealing with delinquent members is coming to an end. It has to. My hope is, now that the seamy underbelly has been exposed, it will be cleansed. We'll see. In the meantime, I'm content with your statement that tarring with the same brush is a concern. Thanks
posted by
Lensman
on September 26, 2005 at 10:01 PM
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Lensman -- Tarring the innocent with the same brush as the guilty is
always a concern but that is not the case here. You must not be aware that the residential school system in our country was the dumping point for every sicko the catholic church had. It was a means of transferring them away from prosecution in other jurisdictions across North America, even globally and went on for decades. The sad truth is that within this system there were very few innocent clergy members. Those who were not involved directly were enablers of those who were.
posted by
gomedome
on September 26, 2005 at 9:43 PM
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Gome
Okay, there are Dolsons out there, no doubt. I just get a little concerned these days with the emphasis on perverts = Catholic priests. I never seem to see any qualifiers such as "some" Catholic priests or "a number," etc. I don't usually speak up on issues such as this unless I've begun to sense that there's a vacuum that needs to be filled. I'm a little biased here, I'll admit, because we do have a close family friend who's a priest. Until he gets hauled into court, though, I'll swear to his decency much as I would any other citizen.
posted by
Lensman
on September 26, 2005 at 9:12 PM
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Lensman -- I'm going to stop you right there.
Dinky Dolson is not a sly insinuation etc. but a real life character with a surname very close to Dolson. He was charged and convicted of a number of sex crimes, as were many of the other priests in the residential school system. I remember him in particular because he was the most flagrant, caused the most damage and was whisked out of town the quickest when it was time to send him into hiding.
posted by
gomedome
on September 26, 2005 at 9:03 PM
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Gome
Did you ever notice that you get really long comments on your page? Haha...
Anyway, the only real beef I have with your post is the sly insinuation (via Dinky Dolson) that if you're a Catholic priest, you're likely to be a pervert. You have to be careful when you get into this area. That's like GlennB insinuating that all whiteys are racists. I know you may come back and say you were only talking about Dinky, but in today's climate.....ahem....
The vast majority of Catholic priests are there for the right reasons, much the same as most judges, hockey coaches, boy scout leaders, Baptist preachers, and so on, ad nauseam. Yet all of those groups and professions have discovered perverts within their ranks. Butchers, bakers, candlestick makers. They're everywhere. It's not a Catholic issue, except perhaps in the sense that "catholic" (small "C") means "universal," which is all-encompassing.
Like you, though, I dumped the Catholic Church a long time ago. I'm faithless now, except perhaps to fall back on the term "spiritual." But I'll never be an athiest.
I remember, as an altar boy, during mass, chanting, "Eat his body, drink his blood," and thinking, "Whoa!" Then I'd look up and see the naked bloody body dangling from a cross. It got to be too bizarre. Oddly enough, though, it was the Catholic teaching that humans have souls but animals don't which turned me off the most. It rang false. Either none of us creatures do or all of us do, in my opinion.
For me, the jury's out. I just have no idea. Anyway, I liked your post in all othe respects.
posted by
Lensman
on September 26, 2005 at 8:54 PM
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Ariala -- does that stuff with the assassins still go on?
I've never had any experience or have any firsthand knowledge of them actually killing people and wonder how much we can believe. Having said that I have seen them go to great lengths to cover up suicides firsthand...or what we assumed were suicides?
posted by
gomedome
on September 26, 2005 at 8:48 PM
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Gome, right, I agree...it's the no international boundaries that is
somewhat alarming. They also have their own rules and government that do not, on paper, respect anyone who disagrees with them. We're called heretics, and under certain conditions, they will kill without hesitation. The Jesuit Assasins, I believe is their official name. LOL
posted by
Ariala
on September 26, 2005 at 8:33 PM
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Ariala -- technically the Vatican is a sovereign state, so the ambassador
is not really out of line, at least on paper. But both you and I know the realities. They wield enormous political influence with the scariest part being that there are in effect no international boundaries for them.
posted by
gomedome
on September 26, 2005 at 8:21 PM
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Gome, the scariest part for me is their political stance in the world...
and the fact that we (the U.S) send an ambassodor to the Vatican. Give me a break...do we send ambassadors to the Native America high priests or the Baptist Conference or any other religious unit? No, but mix church and state together, and we send an ambassador. The U.S. is supposed to promote the separation of church and state, yet we support that in other "country." It's hypocrisy at its best.
posted by
Ariala
on September 26, 2005 at 8:14 PM
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JanesOpinion -- I had to think awhile to remember what those things were
called. I remember scapulars clearly but was having a senior's moment when the name escaped me.
posted by
gomedome
on September 26, 2005 at 8:13 PM
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Ariala - thank you --- it is hard to believe in this day and age that we
lived like this just 40 years or so ago. With one monolithic religious structure a political and economic power unto itself that no one dared to question. It's scary stuff when you really examine it.
posted by
gomedome
on September 26, 2005 at 8:07 PM
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Fascinating post, Gomedome,
regarding scapulars, I'm sure I've lost a number of those (accidentally, of course) down the laundry chute. When I worked in ICU as a nurse I frequently saw these pinned to pillow cases. . . . Didn't see any miracles, but who knows??!
posted by
JanesOpinion
on September 26, 2005 at 6:18 PM
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Gome, I enjoyed reading this story about your past experiences. Having
come out of that cult myself (the Catholic Church), I know all about the rituals of anti-reason that take place there. My faith wasn't destroyed because of it though, and I embrace spirituality from many different cultures and religions into my own. Anyway, interesting.
posted by
Ariala
on September 26, 2005 at 6:05 PM
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Xeno-x -- there is a funny part to this story
The native boys I mention were the descendents of cannibals. Their ancestors were the ones that ate the missionaries who first showed up on the very site the church we were in, was built on. I, at least saw the irony of asking these people to do it again symbolicly.
posted by
gomedome
on September 26, 2005 at 11:41 AM
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actually
the eating flesh has come full circle
it has been surmised that in the first dim reaches of human understanding -- when perception first dawned upon the human race, and they discovered that crops grew better around a dead body -- the first, springtime sacrifices of what they decided would be the best sacrifice -- the least blemished firstborn male -- a fine equinoxal ceremony where the young man was sacrificed, then his body cut into pieces and maybe they'd share in eating the flesh, but many of the pieces were sewn with the crop and the tribe then migrated to follow the game and when they came back, they discovered that their crops were just fine and quite harvestable.
then Abraham came along and refused to sacrifice Isaac. (we have metaphors here ok?) and instead, a lamb was sacrificed.
then it reverted to the Passover ritual, (springtime again) where the lamb's sacrifice was for the salvation of the people.
then this Yeshua guy said -- forget the lamb -- I'm the sacrifice -- at least that's what the NT tells us. Others figured he saw the Jerusalem thing as being too burdensome -- figured Passover ought to be divorced from the Temple and the annual pilgrimage -- said, bread is good flesh and wine is good blood. it symbolizes sacrifice.
now, somebody took it all wrong and decided that this was the real flesh and real blood -- so we're back to square one.
transubstantiation.
but see this guy now is god and spirit and all that
so this little bleached wafer of flour and water without taste somebody says is human flesh. so the god then makes this thing into his own flesh, which he hasn't really had since that nasty crucifixion thing.
i know (just as you do) that there's somebody out there to explain how all this happens.
just wait -- you should be receiving a really long comment explaining this. The explaining of something like this takes some explaining.
posted by
Xeno-x
on September 26, 2005 at 11:31 AM
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