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Kooka
You are right that people are generally impatient, but this is not a characteristic of only believers. In my view, unbelievers abandon the concept of God far too quickly. Please look at the post I have up today because it addresses certain of the things you contend.
It is really impossible for us to set forth God to one another without imposing limits of some type or another because our perspective of God is quite limited; by the fact that we are only human, mortal, and, at least presently, trapped in this small smear of moisture, about the earths surface. It is important that we understand these characteristics of ourselves when we fashion statements about God, as well as the rest of the Universe. For example, as you say, the extent to which we can describe other planets, even in our galaxy, is compromised.
posted by
telemachus
on September 24, 2005 at 4:08 AM
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Ody
We can not clearly see any planets orbiting other suns. And the universe is really, really big. With our present technology we can not even get a clear look at a fraction of our own galaxy. I am positive there is other evolved life forms out there, it will just take time to find them. I think that is another obstacle that some believers are not able tog et around. They do not wish to wait for the answers, but instead want them here and now. The truth is the answers are not easy and they take time to find.
Also, by saying "Isn't it easy to see such materials as the medium with which an artist might work?" Is that you admitting that God has limits? Once you get God to a logical sense where there are limits to him and he has to work through science to create life or evolve life, then you get into ideas that are workable and make sense. It is the whole' let the be life' idea that is just straight out unbelievable.
posted by
kooka_lives
on September 22, 2005 at 7:09 PM
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Xeno – I have no dispute
with the scenario’s that you describe. I see nothing in such conjecture that would negate God. Isn’t it easy to see such materials as the medium with which an artist might work?
posted by
telemachus
on September 22, 2005 at 6:57 PM
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Kooka
Our search for life extends well beyond Mars. Our telescopes have probed far into the universe and we constantly monitor waves from space in hopes of communication. And yet we have no inkling of life beyond or own. I would not wish to dispute “evolution” with you, but would only assert that it is easy to envision evolution as the “finger of God”.
posted by
telemachus
on September 22, 2005 at 6:52 PM
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ody
life
we cannot with our present instruments find "life" exactly, but astronomers have found clouds of amino acids and other pre-life molecules.
to me it's not much of an extension to imagine these molecules finding foothold on planets and becoming life. Maybe they are already.
Maybe Earth passes through such great clouds without knowing it and some of these molecules (or maybe life itself) manage to settle on terra firma. This can be an explanation for the various viruses that suddenly sweep across the Earth without much explanation otherwise.
Viruses are the precursors to the variety of life we have on Earth. They were the first life.
What think you?
posted by
Xeno-x
on September 22, 2005 at 5:57 PM
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Ody
You can call anything you want God, it does not mean that thing is all-powerful. If you wish to use the label God as being an alien intelligence then fine. My issue is with the idea of an all-powerful being. Or anything close to the Biblical God which just does not work on any reasonable level.
I said "since if one were to get technical the laws of probability do favor evolution over creation,". I said nothing about intelligent design there.
And you are wrong when you say 'It is highly unlikely that molecules would accidentally align themselves in such a way as to form organic life, as is substantiated by our inability to find it anywhere else in the Universe.' First off when you factor in billions of years of time in which life could have to form, the chances get better and better. You have a pool of whatever with all the right inorganic junk just sitting there for ages and lighting hitting the area every so often over billions of years, and sooner or later you will get proteins and the beginning of life. And since the proteins for life have been created in a lab setting form inorganic molecules, we know it is very much possible. Most people who try to discredit the idea of evolution do not look at the time frame it takes, which is where the big difference lies. Then we have barely been able to search the universe for other signs of life. We believe we will find some on Mars, but that really is the only place we have been able to look so far. So your claims become weak. It would be like saying that the world was flat just because man lacked the ability to see that it was round. The universe is a really, really big place an there is a really, really good chance that there is some other form of life out there. The odds very much favor that.
posted by
kooka_lives
on September 22, 2005 at 5:00 PM
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Kooka – The theory of “intelligent design”,
would likely view the designer as “God” in any circumstance, be it an alien or mystic being. I agree with you that we must search and I think that man has an innate tendency to search for the truth in all things. Religious representations of God are attempts at defining the truth in all things, just as the projection of unification theories are but attempts. I think you are incorrect in your statement that “evolution” is more “probable” than “intelligent design”. It is highly unlikely that molecules would accidentally align themselves in such a way as to form organic life, as is substantiated by our inability to find it anywhere else in the Universe. The truly enlightened, Godly person does not restrain himself in his search for the truth because he understands that revelations of truthfulness unveil God for us. Excellent, insightful writing here. I enjoyed reading this very much.
posted by
telemachus
on September 22, 2005 at 4:26 PM
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GOD IS PERFECT
so intelligent design must be perfect also
right?
so we have a multitude and a plethora and an infinitude of imperfections, or so we perceive it.
then are these imperfections really part of the perfection and we just don't realize it and just because we don't like hundreds gying via hurricanes or tens of thousands by tsunamis, that's just part of the perfection of intelligent design.,
so how many other imperfections, as we like to call them, are there?
and how, then, are they part of the perfection of intelligent design?
posted by
Xeno-x
on September 22, 2005 at 3:10 PM
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Masky
Well said.
posted by
kooka_lives
on September 22, 2005 at 9:27 AM
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The reality is that we know next to nothing about the universe...
I am an expert at what I know, but an attentive student to lessons I have yet to receive. I used to consume myself (destroy myself) over things that could not be explained. Why do things happen? Why? I used to argue and fight scientific theories, evolutionary theories, and opinionated theory. Do any of us truly have a clue? I think not. Until the dead walk the Earth and tell us the truth we're all just rats in a cage; guinea pigs running circles on wheel. I believe in a man died for my sins. I should say I believe this is possible. I hold tightly to the possiblity, as I believe the human spirit is capable of such sacrifice. Will it take my body where the body goes when it dies? I have no idea. But there's not always proof in the pudding. Sometimes, it's about faith...faith in that which one holds within them - religiously, atheistly (I just made that word up), etc.
posted by
Masky
on September 22, 2005 at 8:52 AM
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