Comments on I Need To Tell Someone Something They Won't Want To Hear

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MayB
I don't know how I would want to receive being told that I suck. *grin* But, I don't think you're doing her any favors by candycoating any of your critism. You're aren't doing a student of dance any favors trying to encourage him when his has no rythm.

posted by Joe_Love on September 5, 2005 at 7:23 PM | link to this | reply

MayB--
My part-time work is reading, proofreading and commenting upon student papers.  I don't interact directly with the students, but I do with the teachers.  I flag all the obvious mechanical problems with proofreading symbols, then I make comments about structure, diction and so forth.  I try to include a positive longer comment at the end of each paper.  Then it is up to the teacher to follow through.  Most students improve.  Some improve a great deal.  The ones with intrinsic talent get better.  I never tell someone that their work stinks or is hopeless.  Sometimes I chastise them a bit for obvious carelessness or failure to actually read material we are supposed to be writing about.  I'm aware that no magic bullet exists to teach writing per se, but mechanics and structure can be improved.  One of the main reasons some students write poorly is that they are simply not interested in the material.  Hemlocker

posted by Hemlocker on September 4, 2005 at 8:16 AM | link to this | reply

Teaching Others How To Write Is Never Easy

What impresses me about your reflections in regard to students who are struggling with their writing is that you are truly concerned, and that you care about your instruction. When I taught composition at Wichita State, I sometimes felt like the navigator on the Titanic. Thanks for reading my recent post. It is seldom that I have a botched spelling as I do catch most of my errors. Every now and then, though, I usually come up with a good one. I'm not sure if it's because of too much coffee, staying up too late, or a combination of both, but when a misspelling does get by, it's good to have an honest reader to catch it for you.

Scot

posted by dog1net on September 4, 2005 at 5:16 AM | link to this | reply

May, no advice sorry, but interestingly enough I just saw the promos for one of those current affairs shows - it could have been A Current Affair, where they are highlighting Australian students lack of spelling ability. Even with words such as "disdain" over 90% of students would get it wrong. Looks like something is missing in our schools today.

posted by Ca88andra on September 4, 2005 at 3:39 AM | link to this | reply

Thanks Littlemspickles, I am going to make very clear notes on the paper and then I thought I should send a note to my colleague who does have contact with the student. My colleague can then follow it through. I still don't envy me either.
Good to see you.

posted by Azur on September 4, 2005 at 1:24 AM | link to this | reply

mayb
I don't envy your position but at the same time, you are in a job where you need to help the students achieve the goal of passable (if not better) writing.

If the student is not focused and seems to cover too much information then let them know that. Is there capacity for the off-campus student to ring or email you? If so, that could be an option. Let them know that they need to re-read their work and check their spelling for meaning. If they are off on a tangent - remind them to focus on the purpose of the paper and only include information that is necessary to the story. And then, if they would like to discuss this further, contact you by email or phone.

If phone/email contact is not possible. Then you just have to write the comments down and hope they understand where they went wrong. Also, is there a writer's guide or a sample story that they can refer to? Perhaps asking them to refer to a particular story or instruction might help with keeping them focused and within the guidelines.

Just some thoughts...

posted by littlemspickles on September 4, 2005 at 12:58 AM | link to this | reply

Mysteria, it happened the other day on my gonzo post too. I love it when the comments are considered and thoughtful although it does take time to respond when it's like that

posted by Azur on September 3, 2005 at 9:36 PM | link to this | reply

MayB
What a nice round of dialog and ideas you've sparked.  I like the humanity that shines through.  I think Katrina can remind us of so many things...one being compassion to those we can affect.

posted by mysteria on September 3, 2005 at 9:29 PM | link to this | reply

Majroj, First, do you really care about this or not? Is this a passing involvement or ongoing? PASSING BUT I MAY AS WELL DO THE JOB PROPERLY

Second, are you trying to redirect someone to avenues they might do better in, or hone a talent? IS there talent? Talent is not evident. TRYING TO GET THEM SEE IF IT'S IN THEM. IF NOT, MOVE ON

Third, why hasn't/how hasn't this person gotten the message so far? Denial? Blaming the messengers? Mental illness? Guilting people into passing him/her? DON'T KNOW, WILL NEVER KNOW

Lotsa luck. You know why I don't proof read or edit other people's stuff. YEP, THIS IS WHY I GOT OUT OF EDITING EVEN THOUGH I WAS EDITING TOPNOTCH STUFF

posted by Azur on September 3, 2005 at 9:28 PM | link to this | reply

JJ Wilde, this is very true and so in some cases it is my role to try to help students look around for other things they might enjoy moreThere are those,
who think that if all ducks are birds then the logical extension is that all birds are ducks. The problem is not with their writing, it is with their thinking. In such a case, you don't have time for the problem in your lifetime.

posted by Azur on September 3, 2005 at 9:22 PM | link to this | reply

Mysteria, thank you for that. Yes I don't attach emotion to these matters, although perhaps the fact that I care at all contradicts that. I don't much mind if she never sees the value of my efforts. Even if it helps her and she is unaware of what sparked the improvement that in itself would be great. I look at it as not being responsible. "Non-interruptus" is not an option.

anthony1wiley

Thank you. It is easier to convey that love when the students are in the same room. In this case it must be done with my pencil. So yes, when I comment on them I start with a positive remark. The trouble is that many only care about the grade.

posted by Azur on September 3, 2005 at 9:17 PM | link to this | reply

Strickgold, JJ Wilde, Quirky, Cunningham_Smith07, Ariala
Strickgold , the system failed her and I wondered about dyslexia. If only they would pick this up in the selection process but the colleges want butts on seats. She needs good teaching over a long period. Thanks.

QuirkyAlone yeah I know blogger fatigue when I see it ;-)

Cunningham_Smith07
This student is far away and so I can't meet her. But yes I think it is a good idea to explain how to progress. To leave someone to carry on as they are would seem negligent and dishonest. Thank you for your kind remark.

JJ Wilde, I am always grateful when someone points out my errors discreetly. I do the same if it means sparing someone embarrassment or if it helps them along the way. Usually a word is all that required. I value communication at that level. Criticism is not my sport of choice. In this case it's my job.

Ariala . These students are adults, some with hectic lives and for some it is a huge step to re-enter education. I think it is a good technique to help the students see things for themselves. Unfortunately this student has been let down by the teachers who were supposed to teach spelling and grammar let alone other things. I don't believe that she would begin to know how to grade herself. However, as I commented to Timmytales ealier, a listing of main points before starting could be a very good start.

posted by Azur on September 3, 2005 at 9:07 PM | link to this | reply

There are those,
who think that if all ducks are birds then the logical extension is that all birds are ducks.  The problem is not with their writing, it is with their thinking.  In such a case, you don't have time for the problem in your lifetime.
            jj

posted by Jack_Flash on September 3, 2005 at 7:04 PM | link to this | reply

Ask yourself, what is your goal, and what is your degree of involvement?

First, do you really care about this or not? Is this a passing involvement or ongoing?

Second, are you trying to redirect someone to avenues they might do better in, or hone a talent? IS there talent?

Third, why hasn't/how hasn't this person gotten the message so far? Denial? Blaming the messengers? Mental illness? Guilting people into passing him/her?

Lotsa luck. You know why I don't proof read or edit other people's stuff.

posted by majroj on September 3, 2005 at 6:54 PM | link to this | reply

word.smith, I will have to generalize greatly on the good bits

posted by Azur on September 3, 2005 at 6:08 PM | link to this | reply

Timmytales, good point. I think I need to tell them about the one-liners (which I wrote about back in August).

posted by Azur on September 3, 2005 at 6:08 PM | link to this | reply

Before one can write properly one must
learn proper English.  It appears from reading your post that this student may not know proper English in order to give a sentence structure.  I say this because you mentioned many misspelled words.  Again this student may be struggling with some kind of learning disability or dyslexia. One will never know unless some one on one assessments are made.  This student has probably been lost in the system and needs just one teacher to provide encouragement and a little compassion and structure.  Good Luck

posted by StrickGold on September 3, 2005 at 5:31 PM | link to this | reply

Yeah...what they all said...except Reni of course.

posted by Julia. on September 3, 2005 at 4:22 PM | link to this | reply

Firm but kind

As Ariala said, you may not have time to work one on one with her, though that might work out the best. If you don't, perhaps you can give her the name of someone who can... Let her know that her writing needs work; that she has been taught wrong, but that she shows potential and you have faith in her. I know if someone was to tell me I did something all wrong I would at least want the person to be interested in helping me get better at it!  That shows faith, and you showing faith in her may help her keep confidence in herself.

Great posts, by the way!  I really enjoy reading your writing..

posted by Cunningham_Smith07 on September 3, 2005 at 4:02 PM | link to this | reply

Ren,

Does he/she lose temper easily?  That's something that often happens when you tell a writer that some of the things that they ''had learnt'' in English were wrong.  I usually try to avoid criticizing anyone on their writing.  It tends to backfire all over your face.  Evaluate your reaction to this comment.  You will probably feel what I mean.

<--((sometimes smoochicons can bail you out, but not always.)     jj

posted by Jack_Flash on September 3, 2005 at 3:56 PM | link to this | reply

Something I noticed that helped when I was working with some younger

teens was to ask them to critique their work along with me at a sitting...in other words, you can have a list of 10 things to review with them and let them reach the same conclusion you have:

  1. Spelling
  2. Grammar
  3. Style
  4. Characterization
  5. Length
  6. Beginnings and endings
  7. Did they answer the questions they asked in the beginning?
  8. How would THEY improve their story?
  9. Are the paragraphs in the right order?
  10. What grade would they give themselves?

I'm sure you don't have time to work one-on-one with all your students, but for those having issues, it might be worth the investment...

posted by Ariala on September 3, 2005 at 3:46 PM | link to this | reply

Renigade3, THAT WOULD BE THE TRUTH

posted by Azur on September 3, 2005 at 3:41 PM | link to this | reply

MayB--YOU SUCK AT THIS

That's how I would put it.   lol  Good luck!

posted by Renigade on September 3, 2005 at 3:21 PM | link to this | reply

Ann, I agree although it won't be easy

posted by Azur on September 3, 2005 at 3:19 PM | link to this | reply

Start with the positives than go into the negatives. It makes the bitter pill easier to swallow.

Ann

posted by A-and-B on September 3, 2005 at 2:58 PM | link to this | reply

I think you should approach it in the spirit of Ayn Rand

Introduce it on an objective level.  Show that emotions not need be involved.  This is strickly business.  Try not to explain but make her understand in a tough love kind of way.  Keep eye contact.  Caring and concern can be revealed via eyes. Oh but you won't be seeing her? 

I would be just like you and consult the blogit crew too.  As in I would really be hard pressed to have to do something like this.  The risk is great.  It is so much easier just to let her go on doing as she is.  Non-interruptus.  I made that word up. 

People don't want to get involved.  It is not always our fault.  A lot of time, we just don't have the time.  You show that you care by giving  her your time.  She is lucky to know you.  I hope she can see the walue of your efforts. 

posted by mysteria on September 3, 2005 at 10:45 AM | link to this | reply

MayB

For what it's worth luv, my Joycie was a teacher and I noticed this one thing about her every time.

Her eyes spoke love all the time, to everybody, and her students felt that love even when she was delivering the cold hard facts as you must do.

She always, always started with the positives and slowly, lovingly got to the meat of what she wanted to say by which time the student was so receptive to everything she said.

I, on the other hand, am horribly direct about things. I never say anything about any creative work done by someone else. See that's why God made me a mechanic and you a teacher luv

posted by WileyJohn on September 3, 2005 at 10:36 AM | link to this | reply

I'd want to be told the good bits first,
but from the sound of it, that might not be possible.  You may have to tell her all that needs doing and how to go about doing it. Sometimes, there's just no beating about the bush.

posted by word.smith on September 3, 2005 at 9:50 AM | link to this | reply

mayb
Teach this student how to outline. To write down specific thoughts (sounds like this is done) and then put them in an order that flows. Show the student how to do it.......then do it with them.......then allow them to try.

posted by TIMMYTALES on September 3, 2005 at 9:16 AM | link to this | reply

And also hope that she didn't piss on it, when rushed.

(Yes, I have had a couple or three pints this lunchtime - photos uploading to blog now)

posted by _dave_says_ack_ on September 3, 2005 at 8:12 AM | link to this | reply

Cross your fingers and hope that she rushed it while pissed.

posted by _dave_says_ack_ on September 3, 2005 at 8:11 AM | link to this | reply

Dave Cryer, thank you. It is a handy line and yet one which can be applied "universally" to say someone is unique ;-). I think this is a case for extra tutelage although I wish the college would determine that before signing people up for the course

posted by Azur on September 3, 2005 at 8:09 AM | link to this | reply

Ariel70, yes it is the sins of the past that must be addressed now. Personally I think the leap from this level to professional writer is too great but there is nothing I love more in these cases than being proved wrong. In such cases it is always a matter of find the right tone don't you think?

Thank you for your comment

posted by Azur on September 3, 2005 at 8:06 AM | link to this | reply

I think tell it straight, but say you can see some real spirit in there that is unique and just needs shaping. Tell it straight on spelling, grammar, paragraph cohesion, first of all suggesting a rewrite taking time with dictionary and reading aloud. If it comes back not much better, then it really is basic instruction that's required and maybe she needs separate tutelage for that.

posted by _dave_says_ack_ on September 3, 2005 at 7:43 AM | link to this | reply

MayB

I think you've got to be cruel to be kind with your student. tough love, so to speak.

It's obvious that her education is ... I was going to say, deficient ... but from what I read, it's non-existent. At least her English is.

If I were told, " look, this story's rubbish!" I'd be hurt ; just as anyone else would be. But saying " Honey, it's not you fault, but this story really sucks. It sucks because some damned fool of a teacher/teachers/ didn't teach you to write properly. So, let's go back to basics, shall we? let's start to show you how to write! Let's go for it! Yes?"

Okay, she got mediocre or no talent, but at least, with some coaching she'll be able to e.g. write a job application. And who knows? You might find that under that mess lies a grain of talent. 

posted by ariel70 on September 3, 2005 at 7:39 AM | link to this | reply