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Janes

Okay, first Solomon worshipped two gods after he came to his senses. Only two, not hundreds. The Bible names the gods even and there were only two of them, not hundreds. Not sure where you got the hundreds of them from.

Second, sins of the father is the most sad and pathetic of ways for anyone to deal with a punishment. It goes against the idea of free will. It goes against the idea of holding a person responsible for their own actions. It is wrong beyond wrong for anyone, including your God to deal out punishment in such a manner. It is insulting as can be towards the ideas of freedom and justice. It would be just like killing off a hundred random people from a town just because someone from that town went and committed crime as way to punish a person. It is punishing the innocent for crimes that have nothing to do with them. Any God that would do such punishment is a sad God and is not worthy of any kind of worship at all. It is not out of love to dish out such unfair, unjust and unreasonable punishments. Especially considering the only crime was against God and hurt no one but God’s ego.

It is sick that anyone in modern times would defend the idea of holding other generation guilty of sin of the father. There is no defense for it, no justification for it and it is very much agent the idea of free will.

So are you saying God ‘grew-up’ between the OT and the NT? Or maybe that God came to his senses and saw that he was doing it all wrong? Is this admitting that Go made a mistake and is not perfect? I am sure you have some reasoning that justifies God change between the OT and the NT, which in your mind will make God look good.

So much of what you present about God shows a God I can not figure out why anyone would wish to worship. For all your talk of free will and love, when you look at God’s action it is clear he is not about free will or love at all, but about control. Your God is a control freak who cares nothing at all for those he is trying to control.

I read the Bible as a source of information. I can not help it if the book is clearly a collection of mythical stories. I was no looking for that, siren I mostly figured that out before I really started to read it. All one needs to do is listen to the stories of Adam and Eve, Noah or the Tower of Babel to see the myths that these stories are. I did not need to try to prove anything, the stories speak for themselves.

posted by kooka_lives on July 19, 2005 at 2:57 PM | link to this | reply

Here is what we do know about Solomon according to the Biblical stories. After he realized the flaw of following God he went and started to worship others [Kooka, I doubt it was the "flaw" of worshipping God. Rather, I believe Solomon was not willing to follow God whole heartedly (something his father, albeit very imperfectly, did do), so instead he worshipped hundreds of different idols, none of which satisfied his huge appetites and desires.] God declared that his kingdom (Although all evidence points to this kingdom never having been) would not last. But because God liked to play favorites and Solomon’s father David was one of God’s favorite, God was not going to punish Solomon, but instead punish Solomon’s children for his ‘sins’[This is a very biblical concept -- the "sins of the fathers visiting the third and fourth generations of those who hate God." Although this seems like such a hateful idea, basically it boils down to the fact that God gives us free will to do as we wish, but our actions have consequences that can harm and effect our children for generations to come.] . . . .

Or do you really not know the story of Solomon according to the Bible? [Thanks but no thanks; I've studied it a few times ]

Looking at the details of it all I see no reason as to why Solomon would suddenly change he ways. Everything I can find shows that Solomon died still worshipping the other gods. But let us say that Solomon did have a change of heart. If all that junk was written by Solomon near the end of his life as he tried to repent, why did God not forgive him? [God is always willing to forgive us, and I am quite certain that assuming Solomon truly repented, God forgave him. However, like I said, there are consequences to our actions. Our sin moves us further and further from God. And our sinful deeds can cause our children great grief. Just consider AIDS passed along to a newborn child. The disease isn't the child's fault, but is a consequence of the parent's lifestyle or poor decisions.] Why did God still punish Solomon’s children for his ‘sins’? A loving, forgiving God would have. By your own account here the God of the OT and the God of the NT are not the same God. [I think you could say that in the OT vs NT we see different sides of the same God. The God of the OT was limited in his communication with his people (i.e. through the prophets and kings), so he made a way to communicate and redeem his people in the NT through his son, Jesus Christ. . . and later through God's Holy Spirit and reading the Bible which, I realize, you believe to be irrelevant and false; I'm just stating the Christian position on this.]

You end up turning God into a very childish being who cares nothing at all about his ‘children’. He is more worried about being ‘right’ and having worshippers than he is about doing what is right and being loving. [If anything, the OT shows how deeply God cares for his children. He disciplines them because of their wicked, hurtful and selfish ways, in an attempt to bring them back to Him. The cycle in the OT is of sin/rebellion, God's discipline, and then repentence. It happens over and over, and in many ways is an example of human nature in general as well as God's grace in particular. However, if a person wishes to do his own thing and live his own life, this whole concept of obedience to God will be quite disgusting and unappealing, so I don't blame you for thinking so little of it.]

Now the other possibility is that Solomon was just sucking up to God in hopes of getting God to actually show some level of integrity and not curse Solomon’s family for his ‘sins’ [But being the wisest man in the world, there's a darn good chance Solomon would realize that God is omniscient and aware of Solomon's every thought!]. Too bad Solomon was not aware that the Biblical God lacks integrity [see above comments!], or maybe he was and that was one of the reasons as to why Solomon stopped following God. The point being that is that was all written by Solomon late in his life, there I a good chance it is all meaningless because it was just Solomon trying to kiss up and he really did not mean of it. It would be the ultimate sarcasm towards a god he was very much at odds with.

The story of Solomon really shows a lot of the childish attitude that defines Biblical God of the OT. This is a horrible concept of God and is far from being worthy of worship or praise. It really would seem that if there is any truth behind the stories of Solomon, that Solomon really came to his senses when he stopped worshipping God. He must have seen that God was petty and selfish and needy. [It would seem, Kooka, that you have read the Bible with the attempt only to prove it wrong, a handful of fables. Thanks to free will, that is certainly your prerogative. If you truly wished to find truth, you would read it with an open mind, asking God (even though you are certain there is no such thing!) to show you Truth. ]

posted by JanesOpinion on July 18, 2005 at 6:52 PM | link to this | reply

Janes

Here is what we do know about Solomon according to the Biblical stories. After he realized the flaw of following God he went and started to worship others, God declared that his kingdom (Although all evidence points to this kingdom never having been) would not last. But because God liked to play favorites and Solomon’s father David was one of God’s favorite, God was not going to punish Solomon, but instead punish Solomon’s children for his ‘sins’. I myself am lost as to how it shows respect to David by destroying the kingdom for his grandchildren and not his son who is the one who is guilty of the ‘sin’. If anything such a thing is more disrespectful and helps to show God to be a bigger jerk.

Or do you really not know the story of Solomon according to the Bible?

Looking at the details of it all I see no reason as to why Solomon would suddenly change he ways. Everything I can find shows that Solomon died still worshipping the other gods. But let us say that Solomon did have a change of heart. If all that junk was written by Solomon near the end of his life as he tried to repent, why did God not forgive him? Why did God still punish Solomon’s children for his ‘sins’? A loving, forgiving God would have. By your own account here the God of the OT and the God of the NT are not the same God.

You end up turning God into a very childish being who cares nothing at all about his ‘children’. He is more worried about being ‘right’ and having worshippers than he is about doing what is right and being loving.

Now the other possibility is that Solomon was just sucking up to God in hopes of getting God to actually show some level of integrity and not curse Solomon’s family for his ‘sins’. Too bad Solomon was not aware that the Biblical God lacks integrity, or maybe he was and that was one of the reasons as to why Solomon stopped following God. The point being that is that was all written by Solomon late in his life, there I a good chance it is all meaningless because it was just Solomon trying to kiss up and he really did not mean of it. It would be the ultimate sarcasm towards a god he was very much at odds with.

The story of Solomon really shows a lot of the childish attitude that defines Biblical God of the OT. This is a horrible concept of God and is far from being worthy of worship or praise. It really would seem that if there is any truth behind the stories of Solomon, that Solomon really came to his senses when he stopped worshipping God. He must have seen that God was petty and selfish and needy.

posted by kooka_lives on July 18, 2005 at 2:49 PM | link to this | reply

I disagree

You'll have to provide chapter and verse telling me where Solomon turns away from God at the end of his life. If anything, (assuming Ecclesiastes was written by Solomon as some have suggested it could have been some other king of Israel) this book is a look back on his life. He discusses how life has been "vanity of vanities," in spite of all that he had. One commentator observes that "the book contains the philosophical and theological reflections of an old man (12:1-7), most of whose life was meaningless because he had not himself relied on God."

So I continue to disagree with you. I believe that Solomon followed God as a young man, but then as King became enamored with all that he had and extraordinarily self absorbed. It wasn't until old age that he looked back on his life and realized that, in spite of all he had been blessed with, without God his life was empty. So as an old man, when he instructed his readers to "fear God and keep his commandments," that tells me that he did not turn away from God -- as you suggest -- as an old man, but rather returned to God.

posted by JanesOpinion on July 17, 2005 at 10:06 AM | link to this | reply

Janes

If you read through Ecclesiastes there really is no sign of when this takes place. My impressions is that it was during his time of strong belief in God and not near his death when he was very much at odds with God. If you read through the story of Solomon you will see he died out of favor, greatly out of favor with God. If Solomon repented and was trying to make amends to God, then would not a loving and forgiving God grant forgiveness instead of cursing the family line?

It is really something interesting the implications that come out of this. if Solomon truly repented, then we once more have great proof that the God of the OT was far from being the God of the NT, which only helps to prove my point of that there are clearly two different Gods in the Bible, or the other possibility is that God saw the errors of his ways and so that would say God knew he was wrong and mistaken in the way he acted in the OT, which shows God to be flawed.

It is amazing at what believers reveal when they point things out.

posted by kooka_lives on July 16, 2005 at 6:46 PM | link to this | reply

Ahhhhhh, but as usual you're missing something. . . .

You speak of the smartest man in the world (according to the Bible). By this I presume you mean King Solomon. You evidently neglected to read the book of Ecclesiastes. Solomon made several interesting comments in this book, including such things as: "do not be quick with your mouth, do not be hasty in your heart to utter anything before God. God is in heaven and you are on earth, so let your words be few."

Or, as Solomon mentioned at the end of his little book, the conclusion he came to as the wisest man on earth: "fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil."

So your assumption that the wisest man turned away from God is, well, only a half truth. After he took his hundreds of wives and concubines, after he enjoyed his enormous fortune, in the end he realized that it was emptiness. As an old man, he instructed others to "remember your Creator in the days of your youth . . ." Or, in other words, don't lose that youthful enthusiasm you once had for God. Everything else pales in comparison. The wisest man in the world, who had everything -- fame, fortune, power, women -- realized it was nothing, nothing, nothing. In the end, as an old man, his heart turned back to God.