Comments on “WE CAN NOT COMPREHEND THE IDEA OF ALL-POWERFUL OR INFINITE." SAYS WHO?

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okay mary x, is my reply to you

All the -" " stuff is mary x comments.

-"Kooka, all of your patronizing and condescension to me and other people of faith aside, I will attempt to explain myself again and examine your logic to find what I consider to be the flaws or inconsistencies of your thinking. Understanding infinity and "all-powerful power without limits" is an easy concept in theory. It is quite easy as you saiy to say, "put two mirrors end to end" and witness infinity. The mirrors trick is at best a metaphor, an analogy or simulacrum of the concept of "infinity:" So, therefore, to say that by putting two mirrors in opposition to one another and "comprehend infinity" is like saying, look through a telescope and see the limits of space. You mistake contemplating the nature of infinity and postulating it in an Aristotlean fashion for actual comprehension."

I am far, far from being guilty of patronizing or condescension. I actually show great respect to people's faith. Yes I challenge and question, but I show respect. In fact I am shown a great lack of respect from believers all because I do not believe, which is the most important aspect for many as to if my views are right or wrong, not if I make sense. So you start off here rather insulting towards me, but I will ignore that.
The mirrors are not a metaphor, you are looking into infinity technically when you do that. You look through a telescope and you see no limits, you can clearly see that space goes on and on and on and on and on. One can not see the limits of space, that is why it is so easy to grasp the idea of limitless. Infinity is way too easy to comprehend. it has no limits it goes on forever. I see nothing at all about that that is hard to grasp.

-"Boys who play Dungeons and Dragons and other role-playing games spend days postulating the rules of the game, the universal knowns and set these rules up in order to better to play the game. Such as "a pair of 7-league boots trumps a cloak of invisibility, I have a pair of 7 league boots, therefore I win" These rules are mere stipulations."

My friends really do not worry too much about the rules because we would rather spend the time playing and enjoying the game itself. We never get technical about any of if. Most gamers I know really are not that anal about the rules if it gets in the way of playing a good game, and the rules themselves will very often suggest that. All though I know not what this really has to do with anything. Although you make it clear you know nothing about role-playing games.

-"My stipulation is that the human mind, which at best lives 100 years, experiences 100 years of its own limited sensory experiences, and the collective cultural wisdom of that person's age, is a mouse's eye view of the infinity of the 6 billion plus inhabitants of this earth, all that has come before and all that will pass, that is the way that things work."

Okay, fine. it sounds like you almost understand infinity here.

-"I disagree with your basic premise that "Nothing can ever reach infinity by definition." I believe that God, by definition, reaches infinity, because he [note personal pronoun: God is a living entity, not an it]. Just because your mind cannot contain the contradiction that any such entity exists which supercedes all known boundaries of time and space, does not mean that he does not exist, or cannot exist. A priori, to say that God is infinite, limitless, and beyond comprehension, means that no mortal mind can contain full comprehension of God, not that he does not exist."

And here you show you really do not understand infinity at all. God could only reach infinity if God were a contradiction. Infinity is forever with no end and no boundaries. You really would have to rewrite the whole definition of infinity to get any concept of God to be able to reach it. You are also getting mistaken about my point at this time. For although I still do not believe in God, I was not disproving God here, just pointing out that God can not be all-powerful nor infinite be any stretch of logic. And you are doing a great job at stretching logic here. (Personal note, I generally use 'it' for God because by all logic and reasoning God would be neither male nor female and 'it' is a perfectly usable term for a living being of no gender). You are unable to separate the idea of an all-powerful and infinite being from being able to be God. In your mind to prove that God can not be all-powerful is to disprove God. You are unwilling to open your mind and accept that there could be a limited God out there.
Also, if we are made in God's image, which I have already a written a post showing this idea, then it can not be physically and must be spiritually and mentally, then we should very much be able to understand God, unless that it is a lie that we were made in God's image. God really should not be that different from us.

-"This is where you lose credibility in my mind, Kooka: "An all-powerful being should be able to do anything, including create a being more powerful than itself". Again, this is another role-playing scenario, which to my mind is ludicrous and unreal: God doesn't have to play parlor tricks or role-playing games just to prove his power. Why would he? I grasp the question, but still I can't beyond "why?" Isn't it enough to create, sustain and order the existing universe? "

It matters not the 'why' but the possible ability to do such. I have more abilities at my disposal than use. I have the power to kill and hurt, but I do not use those powers. Does that mean that those abilities are irrelevant? No, I need to be very much aware of what I can and can not do in. There really is no logic in saying 'Since he would never do such a thing, it matters not if he can.' If he is all-powerful he can do anything, so it is a very valid question to ask if he can create a being more powerful than himself. It is unimportant if this is something he would never wish to do.
And once more you show you have no grasp on role-playing. You really might wish to stop bringing the subject up if all you are doing is working off the stereotypes here. In role-playing you have a list of your abilities and powers. Most of them you really do not use too often, if at all. There are just there is you need them. Each power and ability is still relevant for your character if you use them or not.
it is not a parlor trick or asking for any kind of proof here. It is stating what would be needed to classify a being as being all-powerful and just where the contradiction in that lies. You basically are trying to limit just what all-powerful would have to be while I am saying it means one can do anything.

-"Again, your arguments don't sustain your theses: it's not that thinking too much creates problems, therefore we poor little mindless zombies must be STUPID, irrational and uneducated, at least by comparison to rationalists such as yourself, the blindness to reality is to assume that all you can see, hear, taste and touch is all that there is to reality. As the Taoists are fond of saying, "The Tao that can be known is not the Tao."

First off I never said well any of what you seem to think I said. Being blinded by faith does not make people stupid or uneducated or ignorant. It makes them unable to think beyond a certain level because they are unwilling to listen to anything that goes against heir faith, but that does not mean stupidity. I have been told to my face by believers that they have no desire to think about my concepts. it is not comfortable for them to think about possibilities that disagree with their beliefs. It is the close minded level at which many and I will say it here, if not most believers look at the world which keeps them from really seeing reality. They deny anything that does not work for them and write it off as being 'The work of Satan' or some other such nonsense.

-"Here is where we agree: Such a being cannot be comprehended by means of reason."

When in the world did I say that? I said such a being can not be by any means of reason. It can be comprehended because it is an ultimate contradiction and creates various paradoxes and such which as a writer can be fun to play with and explore and so just how flawed the idea are, but I never claimed I could not comprehend this idea of God. In fact it is very clear I understand your idea of God much better than you do.

posted by kooka_lives on July 11, 2005 at 4:05 PM | link to this | reply

mary x

Do you hear yourself? I have never once 'blown you off'. I do not blow people off. I give replies when I get the chance. You were demanding that I give you a reply without considering that I might be busy doing other things. It would be one thing if you saw me active on Blogit at the time, but since I know I was not active here last night, you whole reply demanding I am at you beck and call was fully rude.

I never demanded anyone prove there is a God. I had mentioned this idea several times in the past and each and every time I would get comments, but they would never address the idea. It had seemed as though the believers here were dodging out on trying to deal with the concept. Once more you seem to have misunderstood the point I was making.

I will get to around to giving a reply to your first comment here when I have the time. Right now all I have time for is a few quick comments.

posted by kooka_lives on July 10, 2005 at 7:41 PM | link to this | reply

Kooka,

I want to back up here, take a deep breath and apologize for that knee-jerk reaction of anger and self-justification.   Debating from this positon doesn't further the ends of understanding. However, I still stand by my post and the points I made therein.

posted by Blanche. on July 10, 2005 at 3:11 PM | link to this | reply

Kooka,

Do you not hear yourself?  You complain about MY rudeness?  I am not on 24/7 either, that's why I didn't respond to the earlier posts that you made, demanding that the existence of God be proved according to your logic.  I re-posted my response to you in my Pilgrim's Progress blog, with further clarifications.  

 

posted by Blanche. on July 10, 2005 at 3:01 PM | link to this | reply

Mary x

Are you on blogit 24/7? Do you think I am? I had other much more important things to do yesterday evening than to be on-line. I did briefly read through your comment last night before bed, but it as late enough that I was not going to spend the time to reply. And I do not have time tonight, since I am off with my family here shortly. I only have time to make short replies right now. Not sure what point you think you are making by acting so rude. I had said no one had tried to answer the question, not that I was not getting comments. I spend too much time as it is on blogit and I have cut my time down greatly over the last few months. If you know me and have kept up with my regular habits, you would know I try to reply to all comments. You will get your reply in time.

Gotta go swimming now with the boys.

posted by kooka_lives on July 10, 2005 at 2:53 PM | link to this | reply

Kooka?

Hello, anybody home?  You complain about not getting any response to your question, then you blow me off? It isn't the first time.

posted by Blanche. on July 9, 2005 at 9:12 PM | link to this | reply

“WE CAN NOT COMPREHEND THE IDEA OF ALL-POWERFUL OR INFINITE." SAYS WHO?

"I get told this a lot by believers. I am not sure they understand just what infinity is. All-powerful, power without limits and the like are actually very easy to understand."

Kooka, all of your patronizing and condescencion to me and other people of faith aside, I will attempt to explain myself again and examine your logic to find what I consider to be the flaws or inconsistencies of your thinking.  Understanding infinity and "all-powerful power without limits" is an easy concept in theory.  It is quite easy as you saiy to say, "put two mirrors end to end" and witness infinity.  The mirrors trick is at best a metaphor, an analogy or simulacrum of the concept of "infinity:" So, therefore, to say that by putting two mirrors in opposition to one another and "comprehend infinity" is like saying, look through a telescope and see the limits of space.  You mistake contemplating the nature of infinity and postulating it in an Aristotlean fashion  for actual comprehension. 

You say, "Such ideas are much easier than great power with limits. When dealing with no limits you need not think about limits, which is where the real issue of the concepts come in, while when dealing with limits you have to figure out what those limits are and how they work. Believers seem to try and claim just the opposite, which shows part of the misunderstanding they follow which allows for them to over look the real facts of it all an are unwilling to see the true way things have to work."  Boys who play Dungeons and Dragons and other role-playing games spend days postulating the rules of the game, the universal knowns and set these rules up in order to better to play the game.  Such as "a pair of 7-league boots trumps a cloak of invisibility, I have a pair of 7 league boots, therefore I win"  These rules are mere stipulations. 

My stipulation is that the human mind, which at best lives 100 years, experiences 100 years of its own limited sensory experiences, and the collective cultural wisdom of that person's age, is a mouse's eye view of the infinity of the 6 billion plus inhabitants of this earth, all that has come before and all that will pass, that is the way that things work. 

We can start with looking at a very simple and easy to understand concept, infinity. Infinity is a very easy concept to grasp and understand. In fact you rarely get such a nice and to the point concept. Infinity basically is forever. It is not ending and has no boundaries. Nothing can ever reach infinity by definition. So it gets interesting when believers claim that God is infinity. If a being is infinity then that would say such a being has reached the boundaries of infinity, which would then say that infinity has boundaries and so has limits and is not truly infinity. We create a contradiction when we try to claim any kind of being is infinity or has reached such. By all logic nothing can be infinite or achieve infinity. It is an unreachable goal and if it were ever reached would create contradiction.

I disagree with your basic premise that "Nothing can ever reach infinity by definition."  I believe that God, by definition, reaches infinity, because he [note personal pronoun: God is a living entity, not an it]. Just because your mind cannot contain the contradiction that any such entity exists which supercedes all known boundaries of time and space, does not mean that he does not exist, or cannot exist.  A priori, to say that God is infinite, limitless, and beyond comprehension, means that no mortal mind can contain full comprehension of God, not that he does not exist. 

Basically the same thing can be said about the idea of ‘all-powerful’ or power without limits. Limitles power is real easy to understand. If you have the power to do anything then you can just do anything. No limits. If you can not grasp that then you are not going to be able to grasp much in life. An all-powerful being should be able to do anything, including create a being more powerful than itself. But of course we create another contradiction when dealing with the ideas of no limits. It starts to get into a circular area of logic that just is never going to work by any means.

This is where you lose credibility in my mind, Kooka: "An all-powerful being should be able to d anything, including create a being more powerful than itself".  Again, this is another role-playing scenario, which to my mind is ludicrous and unreal: God doesn't have to play parlor tricks or  role-playing games just to prove his power.   Why would he?  I grasp the question, but still I can't beyond "why?"  Isn't it enough to create, sustain and order the existing universe? 

Now I have been told it becomes a matter of faith at some point. You have to just accept the piss poor logic that is being used by believers because thinking too much about just causes problems. Well, no amount of faith can change fact and logic. Just as faith cannot change the flavor of your drink or the size of your house or the way the Earth moves around the Sun. Faith can not change fact, it cna only ignore it and make one blind to reality.

Again, your arguments don't sustain your theses: it's not that thinking too much creates problems, therefore we poor little mindless zombies must be STUPID, irrational and uneducated, at least by comparison to rationalists such as yourself, the blindness to reality is to assume that all you can see, hear, taste and touch is all that there is to reality. As the Taoists are fond of saying, "The Tao that can be known is not the Tao." 

Any concept of an all-powerful being who is infinite is filled with contradiction. Such a being can not be by any means of reason. Believers need to accept this idea and understand that they themselves really worship a limited being. There has to be limits to everything, even God. This is where believers get confused as to what all-powerful truly is. They actually follow a limited version of all-powerful as being a true version of all-powerful. This is where my earlier statement about how limited power is much harder to understand than limitless comes into play. If a being is all-powerful relative to us, that does not mean such a being is truly all-powerful. God can be all-powerful relative to us. God can be infinity relative to us. For in the end all things are relative and that is how the universe is really measured. God need not be truly all-powerful or truly infinity, because if he were either he would be a contradiction. But in relation to us mere mortals, he can seem all-powerful or infinite relative to us.

 Here is where we agree: Such a being cannot be comprehended by means of reason.  Full stop.  Period. End of sentence. 

.

posted by Blanche. on July 9, 2005 at 4:18 PM | link to this | reply

kooka...I am surprised at you...speaking as though in a confining box. Possibilities have no limits !!! Even realities, if recognized, demonstrate this.

posted by reasons on July 9, 2005 at 3:56 PM | link to this | reply