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I have also gained some insight into many things human here

some insight into atheists and even other Christians. It is interesting  to see how people respond to things and what they consistantly put out and will not back down from, you learn much from it. And you are right, it is a worthwhile gain.

posted by calmcantey75 on July 9, 2005 at 3:53 PM | link to this | reply

Kooka

I am glad that I have at least helped you understand more of something. You see, Blogit does have some uses.

posted by calmcantey75 on July 9, 2005 at 3:47 PM | link to this | reply

cantey 1975

In general I very much understand what you are saying, which is one reason as to why I know you are confused by what I am saying. You are wearing blinders, no matter how much you wish to deny this. No matter what I could never explain this concept in a way that could break through the blinders. You are only willing to understand the idea to a point and then it crumbles because of your faith. But that is fine and expected. I hold no ill will towards people's faith. I present possibilities and try to get people to think.

I agree that we could go on forever over such a simple question and would never get anywhere, although you have help me to see just where the blinders on believers seem to be and what aspect it is that are the hardest for believers to grasp. So I should thank you for that. part of what I do is try to understand humanity better through the answers that are given here and the ideas present in the debates I try to start up.

You would be surprised at just what you reveal in what you put out there. Trust me when I say I understand you very well. You have helped me to gain a greater insight in the faith of believers, which helps me understand human nature better and such a thing is always a worth wild gain in my book.

posted by kooka_lives on July 9, 2005 at 3:43 PM | link to this | reply

Kooka

 

thanks but I dont need a lesson from you. You have your own logic that is unique to your personal beliefs.

I have been lost as to what you have been saying most of the time, as you have been lost as to what I say. You have no idea of the God I speak of or His ways or my relationship with Him or really what it is I believe, any more than I know how n the world you arrive at some of your ideas and notions. Yes I know, you arrive at them through logic.You have arrived at your ideas over many years of thinking, as I have done the same. So its probably unlikely that two people who are so far apart in thinking can ever understand each other.

But I took a stab at it and apparently according to you fell flat.

So why dont we just back off and let things be. I dont have a problem with you or your faith or what you believe, I have no desire or need to prove you wrong. I just tried to undrstand your beliefs and how you arrive at them by engaging your question that you asked.

posted by calmcantey75 on July 9, 2005 at 3:32 PM | link to this | reply

cantey 1975

You really are lost as to what I was saying.

'all powerful implies limits, whereas limited power implies unlimited power or " striving"'

No, there is always limits no matter what. I am not even sure you know what you are saying there. The theory of relativity explains that. Any being, including God, can only be all-powerful relative to something else, but can never truly be all-powerful because once something, anything approached the level of being truly all-powerful the relevance of what all-powerful is would have to change and there would be a level above it.

As for your second comment.

Where in the world did you get the idea that being all-powerful would mean being perfect? Those two things are not even close to be connected. That would be saying that power makes perfection. A very disturbing and dangerous concept. But we have seen such an attitude expressed by people throughout history and that is when you get your Hitlers and those like him. Everything you said in that comment holds no logic due to your reasoning behind the why of it. God would be as infallible as anything. Perfection itself would fall under the same guidelines and really be even less possible to be achieved since the idea perfection is imperfect to begin with. I have written several posts explaining that already. Do I need to repost one of them for you?

posted by kooka_lives on July 9, 2005 at 3:14 PM | link to this | reply

mary x

The concept of infinity is a very easy concept to grasp. Infinity has no limits and goes on forever. I find that a very easy idea to get my mind around. No challenge at all there. You are claiming God is beyond infinity, at which point that would mean that God has reached the limits and boundaries of infinity, which is a contradiction. So you are saying that God is a contradiction. You are admitting to it.

I think it is that you can not really grasp the reality of it all. If God is beyond infinity then God is the ultimate contradiction and once more should not be trusted. Would you really allow your life to be guided by contradiction?

Although if you are really unable to understand infinity, then we can see just where logic and reason are going to be hard for you to grasp. A concept as easy as infinity should prove no problem to someone who understands simple reason and logic. It is the real limits of the universe that are harder to grasp. If you wish to view infinity it is real easy to do. Jut take two mirrors and put them across form one another and look into either one. You will see infinity nod possible get a better grasp on the concept.

posted by kooka_lives on July 9, 2005 at 3:02 PM | link to this | reply

one problem I have with your argument Kooka

is along the same line of logic you are using, it could be argued that if God is all Powerful He must be PERFECT and incapable of making mistakes. Therefore He CANNOT make mistakes. Is this inability to make mistakes a limit to His power also?

If He is incapable of making mistakes, it is relative to a degree of ability to make mistakes which therfore ties Him to some sort of LIMIT thus negating His PERFECTION, because that perfection was acheived through a linear progression thus subject to an even higher level.

Remember all this is precipiced on God NOT being able to make MISTAKES which is the state of perfection

 how can this state be improved upon in order to negate limitation?

posted by calmcantey75 on July 8, 2005 at 9:12 PM | link to this | reply

Kooka

that is very interesting. Using the speed of light to demonstrate a " all powerful" property in our known universe. The speed of light being the fastest speed, or the, " all powerful speed" that cannot be breeched according to the theory.

If it is breeched, there must be another level of speed by all logic. You are applying the same principle to God. If God is all powerful, it must be relative to other levels of power and therfore subject to being overthrown, or not actualy " all powerful" because all powerful implies limits, whereas limited power implies unlimited power or " striving"

Is this what you are arguing?

posted by calmcantey75 on July 8, 2005 at 8:45 PM | link to this | reply

My point, Kooka, and I do have one, is that I cannot grasp the infinite essence of God, and neither can any other finite consciousness.  It's like the blind gurus talking about the elephant: the trunk, tail, legs and ears, etc. and trying to describe what they feel.  He is beyond the realm of the senses, therefore the known, and always is the mystery behind the physical world. 

posted by Blanche. on July 8, 2005 at 8:40 PM | link to this | reply

mary x

YYou almost seem to have grasped it. You spell out the simple truth right there in your own words, but are just not willing to listen to it.
I can very much grasp the contradiction that would have to be there for nay kind of 'all-powerful' being. It is very clear to me. In fact limitless power is much easier to comprehend because it should not have limits, then limited power. That is why it is so easy for me to see how flawed the concept of 'all-powerful' is.
Go and read my comment for cantey 1975 and see just how I relate this to known concepts.

posted by kooka_lives on July 8, 2005 at 8:34 PM | link to this | reply

cantey 1975

Do you understand the theory of relativity?

The basic logic comes down to the simple fact that one can never travel faster than the speed of light. You can theoretically get a ship traveling the speed light and if a person tries to walk the length of the ship in an attempt to go faster than the speed of light, the relative speed of light would change. That person would find themselves still not traveling faster than the speed of light, but instead their relative speed would have changed in order to keep the guy from ever going faster than the speed of light.

By all logic and wisdom this universe has the same kind of logic has to be true of this really flawed concept of 'all-powerful'. It would truly be impossible to reach because once you reach it there would have to be another level of it and one would only ever be able to be all-powerful relatively. There would always be another level of power in which one could strive for.

You say God is the pinnacle of power, which would then mean God is limited and is unable to create anything greater than itself at which point God very clearly is not all-powerful and is not able to do everything. The idea of infinity basically says it can never be reached. You are only gaining towards infinity relative to other things. Nothing can ever be truly infinite because there would always have to be another level to it.

If God is infinity, then right there God has hit a limit. To achieve infinity would be to reach a limit, which once more creates a contradiction. There is no way to explain 'all-powerful' with out hitting contradiction after contradiction. if you wish you God to be a contradiction, then fine. I would never trust such a being myself. If God is all-powerful, then God is a contradiction and so all of what God has taught much be suspect to being contradicting.

posted by kooka_lives on July 8, 2005 at 8:29 PM | link to this | reply

Well, Kooka,

It does matter if it's necessary, otherwise this whole exercise is a pointless intellectualization, and has no relevance to reality.   

Let me see, if an all-powerful entity, aka God, could not create another all-powerful entity or power, then he himself is limited and therefore, not all-powerful.  However, if he can create another entity or power more powerful than himself, he is therefore not all-powerful.  However, that would be fragmenting the unity of the limitless power of God, if our intelligence can only comprehend what we ourselves have experienced or read, how can we possibly comprehend an entity that is beyond space, time and limit? 

posted by Blanche. on July 8, 2005 at 8:25 PM | link to this | reply

mary x

It matters not if it is necessary. It matters if he can do it. You are claiming God is all-powerful. I am very clearly pointing out that it is beyond impossible for anything to be all-powerful because being all-powerful creates a contradiction in itself. That was an example of the kind of contradiction would have to exist in an all-powerful being.

Simply put you are trivializing and concept of God by trying to claim it to be all-powerful and are weakening the whole idea. Unless of course you can give a concept of 'all-powerful' that does not create contradiction. Any version of God would need to be limited in order to have value and be justifiable. It is pure ego to keep up the claim of an all-powerful God when such a claim creates such a contradiction. Unless you wish to say God is a contradiction at which point you can trust nothing at all about God and so would need to be cautious about following anything this God says.

posted by kooka_lives on July 8, 2005 at 8:15 PM | link to this | reply

Kooka,

It is just that logic is only a portion of the human brain, based on the empirical evidence of our own limited, finite senses, and we, as human beings, operate within the laws of space and time, knowing what we have experienced through these senses.    The question of whether God could create another power greater than himself is moot and irrelevant, because he himself already exists.  Why would it even be necessary? 

posted by Blanche. on July 8, 2005 at 7:12 PM | link to this | reply

Kooka

All-powerful would mean that there is nothing one can not do. Which is where the true contradiction is created because that would have to mean they can create something more powerful than themselves, which would mean they were not truly all-powerful. In creates a never ending chain of madness and chaos that truly can never fit into any rational ideas of existence."

The reason why God cannot create something more powerful than Himself is because He cannot be topped. He is INFINITE. How can something be created that is larger than infinity?

I believe God is ETERNAL and allpowerful. Therefore since he has not boundries in regards to age, His power is unlimited, infinite

 So is this really a limit on Gods power that He cannot create something bigger and more powerful than infinite?

If you understand " infinite" you know that nothing can be created that is larger.

 

 

posted by calmcantey75 on July 8, 2005 at 6:42 PM | link to this | reply

Metta

what I find the funniest about this all is that I am very much opening the door for believers to be able to prove God through limiting God's powers and showing God to be a function of the universe, at which point their belief becomes justified and they could go with a new level of thinking that has a much better chance of being true and working, while still staying with-in the basic faith and following the teachings of the Bible. it is just that believers are too stubborn about certain things and are unable to grasp logical ideas at times.
It is the key downfall of blind faith and it is holding most believers back.

posted by kooka_lives on July 8, 2005 at 6:15 PM | link to this | reply

cantey 1975

'"All in all you are making it clear that you really do not understand infinity or all-powerful at all."

of course I dont fully understand such concepts. Who does?'

I understanding it fairly well. It is straight forward and not really hiding anything. All-powerful would mean that there is nothing one can not do. Which is where the true contradiction is created because that would have to mean they can create something more powerful than themselves, which would mean they were not truly all-powerful. In creates a never ending chain of madness and chaos that truly can never fit into any rational ideas of existence. In some ways it is easier to understand limitless power than it is to understand limited power. You seem to very much be confused by the two, making a limited power into a limitless power. That really seems to be what is not sinking in with you.

The universe is much more bent towards chaos than order. It would make more sense for God to be working inside the laws than 'governing' them. That would be like our conscious minds being needed to run all our body's functions. If such a thing were so, we would all have died before birth. The universe has to be able to run itself without any kind of awareness of else the slightest distraction and all could be destroyed.

posted by kooka_lives on July 8, 2005 at 6:12 PM | link to this | reply

mary x

It is beyond faith. Faith can not rewrite logic, only ignore it. By writing something off as faith is basically giving up and not being willing to think any more. Most of the time I see a believer use that as their reasoning it is because they are unable to use logic to prove their point and most of the time logic very much goes against them at such times.

posted by kooka_lives on July 8, 2005 at 6:05 PM | link to this | reply

whoa....

those mind gymnastics you are doing seem like a stone God might be unable to lift (or unwilling)... you might just be great entertainment for Him

posted by Metta on July 8, 2005 at 5:23 PM | link to this | reply

Kooka Lives

"All in all you are making it clear that you really do not understand infinity or all-powerful at all."

of course I dont fully understand such concepts. Who does?

you ask good questions: "So if God decided to not follow his own laws, is there a limit to his power? If not then he can create a being more powerful than himself, at which point that being becomes the standard at which infinite power is to be measured, and so God was not infinite power":

I do not know if God is willing to do these things 

 

I dont have the answer to these questions. I suppose some of these things you ask are possible. The fact is I simply do not know.

But to answer the first question in regards to there being limits to gods power if He decides not to follow His own laws:

 No. God creates and orders law in His creation because the creation is just that: CREATED. It is not infinite in power and wisdom so it MUST operate and be governed  by law in order for it not to be a chaotic mess. God Himself is not governed by these laws but He observes them because He is law abiding, not LAWLESS. Lawlessness is not the definition of unlimited power.

God could exist all by Himself if He wanted. In that scenario there would be no laws at all. Just his Existence.

posted by calmcantey75 on July 8, 2005 at 5:21 PM | link to this | reply

Rev Kooka

Or some of us "stubborn illogical" believers have gotten tired of playing "what-if", logic scenarios on a subject that is in itself inheretnly about faith.  Talking about God is like dancing about architecture.  I could talk til I'm blue in the face, but you're mind is closed. . 

posted by Blanche. on July 8, 2005 at 5:01 PM | link to this | reply

Cantey 1975

"Nothing is impossible for this being. THis Being sets LAWS that Itself CHOOSES to ABIDE by. That does not decrease its POWER.

This Being choosing to abide by laws that Itself has created is the template for harmony and the starting point for the harmonious laws that order nature and the universe.

THis does nor LIMIT this Beings power, it ORDERS it."

That is the basic justification I have heard before as to why God is how he is. I have yet to see any logic proof of this however. It sounds more like a con man (Which would fit the way God present itself in the Bible) trying to get people to follow him.

So if God decided to not follow his own laws, is there a limit to his power? If not then he can create a being more powerful than himself, at which point that being becomes the standard at which infinite power is to be measured, and so God was not infinite power. Are you really not seeing the great logic flaw that would have to be in order for there to be a being of infinite power?

posted by kooka_lives on July 8, 2005 at 5:01 PM | link to this | reply

cantey 1975

But infinite power would suggest that there is nothing all at that this being can not do, yet you are saying there is something it can not do. it is not about growth, but about what defines infinite power. Infinite power would imply that you should be able to do anything ad so that would mean create something more powerful than yourself, at which point that becomes the new infinite power. It has nothing at all to do with age or any such nonsense.

All-powerful, infinite power and so on, all of those ideas can not work because they say that you have to be abel to do it all and by doing it all that says that has to be another level of power. Unless you are saying that being all-powerful or having infinite power does not really mean you can do anything.

The whole idea of all-powerful or infinite power creates contradiction and trivializes any concept of God, unless of course you wish to not think and just blindly accept this obviously flawed and beyond impossible concept. At which point it then becomes the believers who are trivializing their idea of God. They are unwilling to see that God can only truly work with limits and at such a point suddenly would make sense and could be made to fit in with our knowledge of the universe, instead of going against it.

All in all you are making it clear that you really do not understand infinity or all-powerful at all. You wish for your God to be all-powerful and be capable of anything while not being capable of anything, btu having limits that you will not admit to.

Faith can not undo the simple fact that I am pointing out there that says there can never being anything all-powerful or of infinite power because such a thing would be a contradiction unto itself. No amount of fiath can change that, it can only blind one to the reality of it.

posted by kooka_lives on July 8, 2005 at 4:55 PM | link to this | reply

to elaborate

my concept of allpowerful is as I said a Single Being. A Sinle Infinite all powerful being that has no beginning nor end cannot ( as far as I know) create something that is MORE infinite in power and "age". Infinite is, well, infinite.

So by this logic, you would have won this debate because my God cant improve upon Himself because He is already infinite in power and wisdom.

I know this is mind boggling and I dont expect you to except it. By your logic it is absurd.

But this is where faith comes in. And remember, this faith does not blind me. This God ( that I have been talking about in my posts for a long time) is a personal, living, relational God that is vast in knowledge and wisdom of the universe and beyond in terms of space and time. So I am not void of learning and seeking Him and His riches. I am very, very rich.

posted by calmcantey75 on July 8, 2005 at 2:27 PM | link to this | reply

I am not "asking questions"

this matter IS settled for me. Yes, I do accept some things by faith that you continue to question. In your mind that leaves me with a sad and empty life because I no longer question things and therefore I no longer learn. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is absurd for anyone to claim they know all there is to know and they have ceased from learning for that reason. No one can learn everything in one lifetime obviously. Knowledge of secular and natural things, observable things, I continue to learn just like you. I consider myself to be above average intelligence and I love learning.

However, some things I have ceased from SEARCHING for; such as issues of afterlife, and Higher power. Those are very broad and encompass and close down many if not all pathways of metaphysical rudamentation and philosophy. Yet I still find those things intersting. The disciplines of mathmatics, biology, physics, astrophysics and literature are wide open to me and I have not ceased from learning those things. By any means

My faith in God simply causes me to take on a different logic than the logic of a thoughtful atheist as yourself. YOu and I can logically agree on things up unto a certain point; then it branches off into the realms that our personal beliefs have formulated and settled into either the logic of faith or the logic of atheism. To different viewpoints or faiths that I daresay are subjective

Anyway, sorry to be long winded. My concept of allpowerful is a single INFINITE Being that has always existed, not an infinite process or progression of Beings.

Nothing is impossible for this being. THis Being sets LAWS that Itself CHOOSES to ABIDE by. That does not decrease its POWER.

This Being choosing to abide by laws that Itself has created is the template for harmony and the starting point for the harmonious laws that order nature and the univeres.

THis does nor LIMIT this Beings power, it ORDERS it.

 

posted by calmcantey75 on July 8, 2005 at 1:38 PM | link to this | reply

cantey 1975

"I stated clearly that God could produce something more powerful than himself. And I stated He could not create something more powerful than Himself that He could not overpower,"

That is a contradiction. A full blown contradiction.

If God is incapable of doing something, even if it is creating something more powerful than itself, then it is not all-powerful. It sounds to me like you wish to make the term 'All-powerful' into something else.

No matter what there has to be a limit. You are saying God is incapable of doing something and so there God becomes limited and not truly all-powerful.

You are dancing around by redefining all-powerful and not truly being all-powerful. And by your logic somehow that is not admitting to limits.

Basically no amount of faith can break through the simple fact that the true definition of all-powerful is full of contradiction and simple is so for beyond making any sense that the whole concept is about the biggest pipe dream there can be. There has to be limits, even to God.

This is where your faith blinds you because you can not see the simple truth there. You are unwilling to accept that an all-powerful being which can do anything by definition can create a being more powerful than it is and so is not all-powerful because there is something more powerful. Just the idea of anything being all-powerful creates contradiction and just can not work in any way, shape or form.

A limited God is truly the only form of God that can work and makes sense, as well as would fit in with the knowledge we have of the universe. An all-powerful God does none of that and is ends up destroying all sense of logic and keeps people form being able to grow and expand their understanding.

You were the one who said you did not ask question because you were fulfilled and complete by just accepting things on faith. That says a lot about you and really helps to show just why you do not see that you are dancing around the real point.

In your mind what does all-powerful mean? It is very clkear that your idea of all-powerful and mine are nothing at all alike.

posted by kooka_lives on July 8, 2005 at 1:09 PM | link to this | reply

well cantey, it halfway sounds

circular

posted by Xeno-x on July 8, 2005 at 9:46 AM | link to this | reply

kooka I did not dance around the question I addressed it directly.

I stated clearly that God could produce something more powerful than himself. And I stated He could not create something more powerful than Himself that He could not overpower, but that is not placing limits on Him, it proves is infinate abilities. of course at this point it requires a degree of faith to accept the "infinite abilities" part and that is where I understand you and I have a breakdown in the ability to have a debate. What you call blindness I call faith.

Yes I did make a good argument for evolution, etc. I did not do it inadvertantly as you suggest. I am aware of the argument and I am not afraid of it. It does make logical sense and I am secure enough in my faith to explore it in a detached objective manner

posted by calmcantey75 on July 8, 2005 at 9:39 AM | link to this | reply

the standard god cannot

and the real god -- well that boulder is part of the real god.

but the real god is not outside of the boulder like Sysiphis, but is part of the boulder.

And if it wants to move, then it will.  and if it doesn't then it won't

that's all there is to it.

an in finite boulder?

we're in it.

posted by Xeno-x on July 8, 2005 at 9:30 AM | link to this | reply

Numinous

Silly question? No it is a very logical question and gets right to the heart of the matter. What do you find silly about it?

posted by kooka_lives on July 8, 2005 at 9:30 AM | link to this | reply

cantey 1975

"God is infinite in His ability to create" and yet you are saying he is limited by not being able to create something more powerful than himself. Sorry, that does not make him all-powerful. Your logic is greatly, greatly flawed here.
I am glad you very much pointed ut the real logic of evolution and the universe that goes through a cycle of rebirth. If you read what you wrote you basically made a great augment that says an all-powerful God makes no sense at all, while a universe that evolves through a series of creation and rebirth fits logic and science very well.
You are trying to dance around things. You are trying to say God has no limits, while putting limits on God.
Can God create something more powerful than himself? Either answer says he is not all-powerful. Can God create something as equally powerful as himself even?
You have greatly blinded yourself by the idea that God is all-powerful and has no limits, while at the same time fixing all kinds of limits on God which you justify through some really weak logic.
The simple fact here is that the whole idea of anything being all-powerful becomes the ultimate contradiction and just does not work on any level. There is no escape from the simple fact that there has to be limits. Everything, even God itself it there is such a thing out there, is stuck with some kind of limits. Nothing at all can truly be all-powerful.

posted by kooka_lives on July 8, 2005 at 9:28 AM | link to this | reply

Kooka

It just seems like an incredibly silly question to me.

posted by Numinous on July 8, 2005 at 9:25 AM | link to this | reply

this is my take on it

 This question you have asked is supposed to prove that God cannot be all powerful because if he cannot create it, hes not all powerful. If He can create it, then hes not all powerful because now he cant move it.

 Of course God( being God) can create a boulder to heavy for HIMSELF to lift. But then, again being God Almighty, He would summon up the ability to move it. He would draw from the reservoir of infinity, something we do not possess.

 Then He could create yet another boulder even BIGGER than the previous one, and once again adapt and overcome by virtue of His own intelligence and strength to move it. He would rise above His OWN creation by virtue of His own Godness, His power, His ability. Thus He remains a single Allpowerful Being. This is what MAKES Him God. This is an ability humans do not possess and cannot really comprehend.

So it seems I am answering the question:  Can God create something bigger than Himself that He cannot overcome?

 NO, HE CANNOT CREATE SOMETHING BIGGER THAN HIMSELF THAT HE CANNOT MOVE. But that does not mean He is not all powerful, it means the EXACT OPPOSITE. It proves His power.

If a being can overthrow Himself, He is the ultimate weakling. He is a fool, a dupe and a link in the chain. If He can make something more powerful than Himself that negates Him, he is not God to begin with. That creation itself is God( or is it?). Then that creation would go and do the same thing, the cycle would continue forever thus negating the concept of a single All powerful entity

And on and on it would go. Thus the concept of a repeating and progressive universe and evolution, etc.

This is the same deceptive strategy I believe Lucifer used to deceive and convince many angels to follow Him in rebellion while in heaven. ( No I am not calling anyone the devil there)

 God is infinate in His ability to create and also comprehend,  overcome and overpower. Everything about God is infinate in quality and quantity. Again, this is what makes Him God.

 

posted by calmcantey75 on July 8, 2005 at 9:11 AM | link to this | reply

sunnyj

I give you credit for being the first one to attempt to answer the question. All others seem to wish to pretend I have not asked the question and are ignoring it.
The simple fact though is there is no logic there. You are trying to claim God self limits himself, but that still would not address the simple fact that it would be purely contradictory for God to be able to create the boulder he can not lift while at the same time begin able to lift it. God has to have limits to begin with, everything has to have limits. These are not self imposed, these are just there. All-powerful is beyond impossible, no matter how much faith is put behind it. Faith can not reverse contradiction.
Address the Idea of God as being all-powerful (NO self limits there) and explain him begin able to both create the boulder he can not lift and him begin able to lift it. That is where the true point of it is. God can only be all-powerful if God is an absolute contradiction and then the whole idea of God becomes something of a joke.

posted by kooka_lives on July 7, 2005 at 8:40 PM | link to this | reply

Within Limits

I think you miss the concept that God limits himself in order to allow us to relate with him.  He was the one, after all, who said, "I will be their God".  He is "God", with all the trappings inherent thereto, when he is relating with us in much the same way as a woman is "mother" when she relates with her children.  They know her only as "mother", not as "wife" or "employer", or any of the roles she has in other relationships.

Is that female which the child knows as "mother" capable of sexual activity which will produce offspring?  Yes, but while limiting herself to the role of "mother" she will not do so with the child.  If she is a good mother she is "incapable" of such an act.  This is to protect the child.  The child is not equipped to relate with her on that level.

Is God (the whole of God, all that he is) able to create a boulder which God (the self-limited God who keeps himself only in that capacity to which we can relate) cannot move.  Yes.  He is "incapable" of taking himself out of the role he has chosen to play in our lives.  Love confines him as it does the mother in the illustration above.

We are not at present capable of relating with all that God is any more than a child is ready to relate with his mother in her other capacities.

posted by sunnyj on July 7, 2005 at 7:17 PM | link to this | reply

kooka_lives -- 2 millenia of brainwashing is a hard thing to overcome

All of these notions that hardly make any sense would not see the light of day as proposals if they were introduced today. As we continue to learn and grow, there are still people out there that want so very much for the biblical idea of God to be true that they have become experts at reconciling what our knowledge has rendered as nonsense with reality. The all powerful notion of this mythical omnipotent being becomes ever further diconnected from our daily observations yet some people just can't let it go. All I can say to the believer who insists that this is true is: "Hey, ancient man with his kindergarten equivilancy education screwed up in his accessment of the world around him and how things came to be.....get over it."

posted by gomedome on July 6, 2005 at 8:21 PM | link to this | reply