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well life is nothing but a learning process
the more mature a Christian becomes, the more they realise to just leave people alone and let them find there own way, instead of trying to personally oversee it.
posted by
calmcantey75
on June 28, 2005 at 3:41 PM
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cantey 1975
I have very often said religion can be a good thing if looked at correctly, with an open mind.
A good friend of mine was saved by being 'reborn'. I really didn't know all of his problems till after he found 'God'. He had been through some serious stuff in his life. The problem was that after he got 'reborn' he tried to get all of us to be 'reborn' and that did not work out too well. He needed to pull himself together, we did not.
The big thing though, is religion is not right for everyone and people need to find out for themselves what is the right path.
I am going to go crawl into a ball for a little while in my nice warm bed and take nap. I need one.
posted by
kooka_lives
on June 28, 2005 at 3:30 PM
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Kooka
I know you think Im nuts and all that, I dont hold it against you. But I actually agree with alot of what you say.
Religion has been hijacked by villians and charlatons over the centuries, and it has been used to manipulate and control people.
I myself believe that before everything got screwed up over the centuries, there is alot of stuff to be taken that is good and pure, if one is willing to investigate the original texts as far back as possible. And one can tell when something is pure or when it has been tampered with by the inconsitancies that appear.
posted by
calmcantey75
on June 28, 2005 at 3:17 PM
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cantey 1975
The personal agenda aspect does play a part in it all. It is power to be able to control the masses through religion and that does cause much of the blind, unjustified hatred.
posted by
kooka_lives
on June 28, 2005 at 3:01 PM
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Janes
Boo-Hoo. You have to work. I myself 40 hours week, I spent five hours a week commuting. I have two kids and a house as well as a wife to deal with. I am at a lost as to what any of that has to do with the points being made here. I make my points by the knowledge I have. If I do not have the needed knowledge, I am smart enough to know when it is best to say nothing. In fact there is one post that I have been working on and it is ready to go, but I have not had the time for the last few weeks to double check myself on it. Trust me, it won't get posted until I am positive it is accurate. But I am a patient person and feel no need to rush into posting something that does not have facts to back it up.
I am always honest with myself and I know I just no longer am able to hate anyone.
posted by
kooka_lives
on June 28, 2005 at 2:59 PM
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Kooka, if it makes you feel better to say all that crap about me, fine. The fact is that I'm working about 50 hours/ week, commuting 6 hours/week, doing research and study at home (related to my job) and obviously do not have the same abundant time to do the research and formulate the arguments as you seem to enjoy. I'm not complaining -- just stating the facts as they stand for me. What started as a comment about discrepancies on race and religion have obviously spiraled into our usual clash.
Go back and read the tone of your comments and tell me if you still think you are incapable of showing hate. Be honest with yourself.
posted by
JanesOpinion
on June 28, 2005 at 5:42 AM
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It is always unfortunate when people mix Christianity ( or any religion)
with their own personal agenda. That is when people screw things up
posted by
calmcantey75
on June 28, 2005 at 4:24 AM
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Hemlocker
I've been stuck debating religion with Janes on and off for some time now. Well it rarely is debating really, it is mostly Janes trying to discredit me, yet never once proving me wrong in any way shape or form. Then of course normally she just gives up and fades away for a while because she is not able to prove anything through her attempts at discrediting me.
You are new here, so you might be unfamiliar with me. But I generally am one that the believers give up on trying to discredit after a bit, although most of the time they pop up again and try it all over. You can get some believers who will actually do real debating and not just the BS discrediting as Janes here does. Those are ones I actually enjoy going back and forth with.
But trust me, I can hold my own against here just fine, as I have already done many, many times in the past. I think that is one reason as to why she has such a hatred for me. It is bad enough I am a non-believers, but it drives her mad that she can not prove me wrong it would seem.
Thank for reading my stuff though. if you enjoy seeing this kind of thing going on, stop back often. You might even wish to go back through some of my older posts. I had a habit of really getting things going in the past. I've loosened up as of late, but I seem to be headed in that direction again.
posted by
kooka_lives
on June 27, 2005 at 7:26 PM
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Janes
I do not know what personal problems you have, but I am starting to feel sorry for you. You really are confused and lack the basic understanding of what being judgmental is. I stated an observation I have made about believers. It really was not a judgmental statement and there was no hate involved. You see it as judgmental because it challenges your beliefs and that is about the greatest crime anyone can do in your eyes. You have made this very clear throughout your comments to me. Are you afraid that you fit into this category of those who just pay lip service?
You wish to not listen to me because I challenge your faith. That is as clear as it can be. You will always disagree with my statements no matter what because I am not of the same faith you are. You will not be willing to be rational and give my statements a fair acknowledgment because you truly hate that I can challenge you so.
You wish to see hate and judgment from my comments because that will allow for you to feel high and mighty over me, the simple non-believer. While I shall not deny that I am arrogant, everyone is after all and some of us stand behind of ideas stronger than others no matter what and by doing that create a greater sense of arrogance, I am not judgmental nor have I ever shown myself to be hateful here.
I am find it amusing that such a simple post that if one were to read with a calm and open state of mind would see that it truly is directed towards those who fit the category of people in that quote of mine has gone and gotten such a response while when I go and prove that there can be no all-powerful God, all the Believers seem to vanish. In fact I still have yet to hear anyone come forward to challenge my proof that there can be nothing truly all-powerful.
Oh, and by the way, are you done attempting to discredit me? Are you going to try and actually provide some form of proof to prove the idea of my post wrong? So far all you have done is presented the very same attitude the post is about, all the while trying to make the claim that Christians do not have such an attitude. I am unsure as to why you seem to wish to help me prove my point, when you are claiming my point is not valid. (That was me being arrogant, not judgmental or hateful.)
posted by
kooka_lives
on June 27, 2005 at 7:17 PM
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Kooka
Some advice for you: Don't argue with Jane about religion and don't argue with twodog about politics. Hemlocker
posted by
Hemlocker
on June 27, 2005 at 7:15 PM
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Excuse me, Kooka, but you're not judgmental??? Huh?
"I would put the majority of believers in this world to be about as far from really believing their faith as I am. They just pay it lip service in order to fit in and feel as though they belong. They have no clue what real faith is, and they don’t care one bit." -- Who do you think you are to be making such a statement, and to say you're not judgemental and without the ability to hate. Oh please. I stand by my previous statement of your amazing ability to extrapolate your experience with a handful of Christians and other religious people and to presume that you know all things. Such arrogance.
Speaking WITHOUT sarcasm -- your statements make me wanna puke.
posted by
JanesOpinion
on June 27, 2005 at 6:05 PM
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e_h_p
No, it is perfect valid to call this racism.
First off, the Muslims are as much of a race as the Jews are. It is a level in which the religious ideas have come to be part of the racial identification. With both 'Jews' and 'Muslims' anyone can joins the religion as they desire, but for the most part both groups are defined by their racial identity. The Muslims have a shared ancestry and that is the key defining element of what makes a 'race'.
As well as the simple fact that the ideas of racism as very much present in such kinds of blind and unjustified hatreds. It matters not if it is 100% accurate to call it racism, since the attitude is there and the attitude is accurate to be called racism, the term still would fit in order to show the idea of just what kind of mentality is being shown.
posted by
kooka_lives
on June 27, 2005 at 3:50 PM
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Janes
You attitude speaks volumes. For one thing the point of this post wasn't being directed towards most Christians. Of course the idea of 'Sarcasm' just goes over your head. At the end of the post I make the real point very clear, yet you care not about that at all. Yet you will never be willing to see the true point of the post, because your hate towards me is to great to get what I am trying to say.
Why am I even bothering with you?
I already know that as far as you are concerned I can do no right at all because I am not a 'Christian'. You will go on to defend till the end any old idiot who claims to be a Christian, no matter what actions they may take.
I am not judgmental, I make points. If you do not wish to face the simple fact that there are Christian out there who spread hatred and history has recorded a great deal of Hatred having been promoted by Christians, then I can not stop you.
I can promise you though, I have hate for no one. I speak my mind and I tell it as I see it.
posted by
kooka_lives
on June 27, 2005 at 3:31 PM
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ok not racism
bias
bias is bigger than racism
bias knows no racial bounds.
i can become biased against certain Christian communities because I see the misdeeds of some in those communities. I ask myself, "Are all such Christians like that?"
I am sure thre are exceptions, but I continue seeing what I consider to be the norm in those doing the misdeeds. Thus I still tend to judge the entire group as being like those transgressing individuals.
Then there is blindness. When a valid criticism is levelled, defenders pop up and give the same old, tired, worn out defense instead of addressing the criticism.
the criticism is a storm. the old, tired, worn out paradigm is a house built on sand. The house has fallen, but those inside don't really know it.
Christianity needs to repent.
posted by
Xeno-x
on June 27, 2005 at 6:19 AM
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I did re-read your blog, Kooka,
and as ever was impressed with your judgmentalism and sweeping generalizations. Because one or two bloggers say something hateful, you extrapolate to all Christians. You say you're not hateful, and yet you are the most judgmental (and hateful towards Christianity) person I think I've encountered -- which I realize is a judgmental statement on my part. But true.
Keep in mind, while the KKK members were brutalizing and terrorizing their neighbors, some in the name of Christianity, there were many more who were firmly against the work of these white robed cowardly bullies. At any given time in history, while there have been some Christians being hateful and making fools of themselves and the name of Christ, there have been many others demonstrating true Christianity.
But you insist on seeing only the bad apples and assuming you know everything there is to know about Christians. And you call ME judgmental?? I was quite happy for several weeks NOT reading your blogs. I think I shall return to that state, thanks but no thanks.
posted by
JanesOpinion
on June 26, 2005 at 5:45 PM
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Janes
Did you read a single word of the actural post? As normal you did nothing at all to address the issue itself, but instead have done all in your power to attempt to discredit me and make it appear as if I have no clue what I am talking about.
I am very much aware that Muslim is a religion and not a race (Although much like the Jews, the relgion has more or less become the race, not that facts would interest you in this case), but it is still racism to go and generalize any group of people. It is the idea of racism that is important here, the kind of mentality behind it. The simple fact that Christians seem to very often promote blind hatred and generalization for any group of people they have found some reason to have a problem with, is the issue in the post.
There are dozens of posts right here on Blogit written by Christian bloggers promoting hatred towards Muslims. There is a Christian blogger here who basically told me that I should hate Muslims and by that be of the Christian mind set. I would tell you his name, but after all the crap that has happened here on Blogit with banning, I am not going to risk it. However, it would not be hard to hunt down the comment itself by looking through my more recent posts.
Are you so blinded and out of touch with reality that you are not about to be able to admit that there are bodies of Christians out there who are doing this? Are you really of the mind set that says ‘Christians can do no wrong while all others can do no right’? The truth is that such an attitude is about the highest form of racism that can be found. I honestly think you just got pissed off because I was pointing out a simple fact about Christians. Unless of course you have some kind of proof that goes against recorded history and the easy to see activity of some Christian bloggers in the here and now.
But if all you can do is try to discredit me in such a childish way, then right there you are saying all you need to say to help me make my point. Learn to address the issue as it is presented and stop trying to dance around the truth. There is a well documented history of hatred being promoted through Christianity. Right here and right now we are seeing many Christians pushing blind hatred. For all the lip service you and other Christians spit out, the truth is that there is evidence that very clearly says that Christianity promotes hatred and discrimination. Just your own personal attitude towards myself and other non-believers helps to back up this idea.
I would recommend you reread the post. Really read it and really pay attention to what is said. I know some of what I said is negative (But true) towards Christians. And in your mind since I am a non-believers, for me to say anything negative (No mater how true it might be) against another Christian is fighting words for you. You have to blindly and foolishly defend anyone else who claims to be Christian from us pure evil non-believers.
As I recall (Although I could be mistaken here) you were the one who made the overly ignorant, generalized comments about non-believers some time ago that I tried to correct you on. Those comments were really no different that what this post is about. It is amazing at how many Christians seem to wish to argue this point, all the while they are really the worst when it comes to showing blind hatred for anything different from them.
posted by
kooka_lives
on June 26, 2005 at 2:50 PM
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Well Kooka, once again I am not disappointed.
You continue to verbalize the same old confused rant against Christians. Such predictability!
One thing I would like to point out is that it seems you do not understand the difference between "race" and "religion." You talk about racism against Muslims, when that is a religion, not a race. I, as an American, could become a Muslim but still be an American. I could be a citizen of Saudi Arabia (thank God I'm NOT -- particularly as a woman -- but just for the sake of conversation) and not be a Muslim because I converted to Christianity (not a good thing to do, though, because in that country it means I would be put to death).
As a Christian and an American I hate the DEEDS committed by terrorists (who happen to follow the Muslim religion), but I do not hate Muslims. Am I racist? Not in the least. I just happen to disagree with the religion, not the (primarily) Arabic peoples who follow this religion.
Next time, before you carry on with such accusations, please get your facts straight.
posted by
JanesOpinion
on June 25, 2005 at 7:57 PM
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