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my son is right
there is that passage in Paul's epipstles: "Jesus Christ, the same, yesterday, today and forever."
So we have Jesus as "The Word . . . which in the beginning was god and was with god . . . "
So we then have Jesus, whose message since @ 30 A.D., is peace -- we have him before that time doing what?
Engaging in all the violence and mass deaths?
Or just sitting by while his father, God, does all this?
So what happened snce 4 B.C. to change all this?
If Jesus is the same -- then why are things different at these different times?
posted by
Xeno-x
on June 1, 2005 at 7:19 AM
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cantey 1975
It does not matter if you claim that God approves of it or not. Most fanatics are not thinking that way. All they are concerned with is that they truly believe themselves ot be doing God's deeds here on Earth. Just by defending God's wrong actions, you are allowing them to defend their wrong actions.
It still is 'do as I say, not as I do' that you are trying to teach.
Once more you are still looking for justification for God's actions. You will never claim his actions were unjustified and right there is the end all of the true problem. God is heroic for killing people and so or others in the Bible for killing in God's name. It is all justified by believers, yourself included. Yet you refuse to accept that such justification is destructive.
Or, and I give a lot to my family. Right now the stress is low and life is looking good.
posted by
kooka_lives
on May 31, 2005 at 3:44 PM
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yes, I agree with Chellybelly
see to your family. You have enough stress as it is Im sure.
posted by
calmcantey75
on May 30, 2005 at 11:18 PM
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Kooka..I didn't "look over" what you were saying...I was kinda hinting
that point when I said I don't do the "religion wars" thing. Goodness...I have enough fighting at my house...these people can get real worked up. I am a believer. I grew up Baptist, and have had many bad experiences with it. Half my family is Catholic...so you can just imagine. I have to say through my little 29 years of living and things that I have seen and lived...it has been hard to keep faith. I understand what you are saying. If a prayer comes true...God bless.. If it doesnt and horrible things occur....God's will. If that's so, why pray at all? If God is going to do what he wants anyway - ??? Same in a way about your point I think. Masses of death - Noah and the Ark thing. Wash away all the sinners. I know the Baptist religion...or the one I was raised with...our love of God and living the Christian way wasn't out of faith or belief. Maybe for the adults who (some of them anyway) had enough sense to really think for themselves it was. But for the 1-8 yr. olds in the front row right under the preacher (who was always red faced from screaming and yelling, slamming his hand down on the alter) it was fear. I was scared to death of not God himself, but of the horned goat/man that would leap from the firey crack in the ground to drag me to hell if I didn't please God.
3 different churches, 3 different preachers, all the same hell pit of fire I was going to be thrown in by various different creatures. Revelations in the bible - whew. My cousin and I used to read it at night for a "scarey storytime". We honestly were so scared at one point, we were waiting for satan (cause he could just pop up at anytime) to come and get us. Maybe in an odd kinda off way...fear has made allowences for actions. Again I'm full of shit and no nothing, but when I was little I would never have thought to question God. If he did it, no matter if it were something I could do, it was OK.
Good wishes again to you and yours...you were right to skip blogging and play with them babies! They would think so. 
posted by
Kiddo75
on May 30, 2005 at 11:11 PM
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the fact is Kooka it is you that is overlooking
you are overlooking the point that I make again and again. God does not approve of killing and destruction of people anymore since Jesus Christ came to the earth. The point that I make is you are comparing apples to oranges. The earth was a differnt place before Christ. We live in a time in Christ. It is like trying to imagine what was before the universe. You cant, the mind does not allow for it.
That was the whole point of Jesus Christ, to bring Peace. A SWORD of peace. But this SWORD is not meant to cut human flesh and spill human blood. But to slash the heart of the evil one and break his power. The power of Death.
Only Christians can weild this weapon. THe weapon of the Ressurection: the Ultimate Action: the Raising of the Dead.
The actions of rebellious humans on mankind since the coming of the Christ do not accuratly portray the intentions of God.
posted by
calmcantey75
on May 30, 2005 at 11:10 PM
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CHELLYBELLY
It matters not to me if I change your mind of if any of it makes sense to you. if I got you to think and look at other possibilities, then I di what I set out to do. It matter not if it changed your mind, but that I got you to think about things.
Thank you for your warm wishes. One of the reasons I did not get much blogging in tonight is because I spent time with my family this evening instead of giving myself any time to blog. I know what is importnat in my life.
posted by
kooka_lives
on May 30, 2005 at 6:10 PM
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To all the believers here
It really does seem that you are over looking a major point I was trying to make in this post.
You keep on justifying God’s actions because he is God and has every right to do as he pleases. You claim that God’s actions are for the best, no matter what they may be. That attitude allows for anyone who believes themselves to be doing the work of God to justify any and all actions they may take.
In fact it is the attitude that God is some what heroic for his destruction of the ‘lost’ that helps to inspire terrorist and others who feel they are doing the same thing as God did. All you really are doing by saying God had every right to do as he pleased is to allow for terrorist and such to justify their actions for the same reason.
posted by
kooka_lives
on May 30, 2005 at 6:06 PM
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sunshinegal
Where did you get the idea that I am not looking of the truth? Just because what you believes to be the ‘truth’ is not what I believe to be the truth, does not mean I am not looking for it. I ask hard questions and look at all the possibilities. All in all I am on a much more serious quest for the truth than those who accept whatever religious ideas are being taught to them without asking questions and looking a the possibilities. I write these posts to get people to give me their views and ideas on it.
Are you really looking for the truth, or do you already believe you have it and no longer need to question things or look at the possibilities?
Are you afriad you might be wrong about what you believe to be the 'truth'?
posted by
kooka_lives
on May 30, 2005 at 6:05 PM
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whew...gives a gal a lot to think about! I don't dare even begin to
tap into the "religion" thing on here. I have issues of my own that need special attention.. I can't worry about coming on here and having to argue. But I will say this, very well thought out and very well put. I will say this as well - I grew up with "different" parents, an unkept home and "daddy" after "daddy". You do live what you learn for the most part. I have had struggles with self hatred and shame ever since. leading to one bad rotten egg after another. I was not taught I was worth better, so if my own mom and dad felt this way...the parents I was supposed to look for love comfort and self respect...how could anyone see past this nightmare?
But even though we can be taught by example, I think the real struggle is to overcome what we inside feel is not truth or what is right. When something is instilled in you from powerful forces, it is hard to go against what you were taught to believe. It is late, this makes no sense, I'll end this with nice thoughts for you, your wife, and especially them babies of yours. Love 'em like there is no tomorrow.
posted by
Kiddo75
on May 29, 2005 at 10:32 PM
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God will only use destruction as a last resort to bring about his righteous causes, much like the US fights, only when we have to (which is going into a whole different mess in you're anti-war). God does not want any of his children to suffer, but "it is better for one individual to perish, than for a whole nation to dwindle in disbelief".
posted by
tigerprincess
on May 29, 2005 at 10:04 PM
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one last comment, then I put away my clicker.
kooka, I'm saying this in friendship, and I only mean to make you think. I am only a person who believes in the risen Savior. I ask you, honestly...if you have no belief in God, and no interest in finding out the Truth, why do you spend so much time worrying about it, debating it, etc. It should be a minute thing you can just brush off, right. I think there is something in you that wants to find out, but you just can't accept what is told to you in the light of friendship. I'm leaving now. Saying goodbye. I'm busy and have other things I must do. I hope you find your answers. I really do.
posted by
sunshinegal
on May 29, 2005 at 6:08 PM
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kooka
You have all the answers. We'll see.
posted by
sunshinegal
on May 29, 2005 at 5:58 PM
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but if God is indeed God
why would he need to face judgement? If you accept the premise of God and he is all knowing in justice and righteousness, how can there be any fault in his decisions? How can we find fault with such a being?
The reality of the OT was people were warlike and barbaric with or without God. God did not make them that way, He simply intervened on their own level of activity and nature. The reason for that is because there were a race of people who were just as warlike as everyone else, but they choose to believe in God. As a result of their belief, God protected them and prospered them. Also, God had another responsibility: He had to protect that same line of people that would ultimatly bring forth the Messiah who would redeem humanity from the power of death. THat is one of the main reasons for such war back in that age, Satan was fighting the linage of Jesus Christ in order to stop Him from being born. God made a promise to the devil in the Garden of Eden: And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her Offspring; He will bruise and tread your head underfoot, and you will lie in wait and bruise His heel.
THe devil knew a Redeemer was coming, so he fought it all until the day of Christs birth with war and destruction of all kinds.
I think we had a similiar discussion a while back. The bottom line is I know you do not accept the premise of the Biblical God, which is what all of my arguments are pretty much based on. If you have questions I would be honored to answer them for you. But this debate has happened already, I think.
posted by
calmcantey75
on May 29, 2005 at 3:14 PM
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sunshinegal
I am the creator of two little guys, who I love beyond belief. if they were to someday deny me, I would still love them. I would not even think about killing them just to prove a point or show that I have power over them. I do punish them as it is, but once they are adults I will allow them to figure it out for themselves and do what they feel is right in there lives. If they wish for me to be no part of it, it will hurt me but I will let them do it.
As for you idea of Satan, I have already gone over the concept of this fictional character of Satan many, many times. I always get a laugh whenever a believe talks about Satan because it very often shows that they have not studied the history of the Bible, btu instead are only working off of what the church teaches people now days. In the end Satan is a piss poor concept for a Character.
God has no right to punish us by death just because we are not doing as he wishes. He also has no right to act as though he can choose our fates for us just because he created us. That would be the same as justify an abusive parent beating their kids. Although you seem to get confused. You are saying it was better for God to kill off his people above allowing them to live their lives as their felt they needed to, even if it was not as he wished? That justifies the mother's who drown their children so they would never know temptation and become corrupted and end up in Hell.
posted by
kooka_lives
on May 29, 2005 at 2:59 PM
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cantey 1975
You are picking one small part of the NT for the whole of the action. The NT is mostly words, much more than the OT, which is more action.
Basically by saying God is the only source of judgment you are just helping to prove my point. God is saying he is justified in his actions because he has the right to do as he sees fit because he is God and he is doing what is best for his true followers. Right there is becomes as simple as can be for any one who claims to be a ‘true follower’ to go and say they have every right to kill those who are not ‘true believers’. Just by saying God was right to kill off anyone without having to face judgment or admit his actions were not the best, simply puts it at a level where anyone who feels righteous by believing they are God’s chosen can justify their actions. It is still trapped at the level of God trying to say ‘Do as I say, not as I do’ and by all evidence, reality never works that way.
Truthfully the only way to get around the justification of any of these relies groups is to say that God should be held accountable for his actions. By holding God as being above his own rules and above having to answer for his actions, you allow for anyone who claims to be doing God’s work to use the same justification for their actions.
By defending God is such a way, you allow for others to defend themselves in the same way. It should create something of a dilemma for believers. They can not go against God and have to justify his actions in order to back up their beliefs, while at the same time it creates the justification used by so many to commit their terrorist actions.
posted by
kooka_lives
on May 29, 2005 at 2:48 PM
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ehp you are right
it does say amoung men, which is wonderful.
posted by
calmcantey75
on May 29, 2005 at 10:29 AM
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correction:
it should read .."not to be destroyed..." in the first line of the 2nd comment.
posted by
sunshinegal
on May 29, 2005 at 9:55 AM
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by the way....
all these people would have had to do to be destroyed and brought back into obedience was to stop denying God and the Lord Jesus Christ, and to turn from their evilness...But they refused for once and for all time. What would you have God do?
posted by
sunshinegal
on May 29, 2005 at 9:52 AM
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an example ...inadequate as it is...it's still food for thought.
May I suggest something to think about....We all know the story of Pinnochio, I 'd imagine...If not...it's the story of a wooden boy named Pinnochio, who was created by his father, Giupetto. Giupetto was a carpenter. He wanted children, but had none, so he decided to make a wooden puppet. He did. He loved the puppet, but the puppet went his own way, and disobeyed Giupetto. It happened that everytime Pinnochio told a lie, his nose grew longer. Giupetto was the only one who knew the reason for this. Pinnochio knew he shouldn't tell lies, but he did it anyhow, and, though his conscience bothered him...he went right on doing it. He got into disaster after disaster, and his nose grew longer and longer.
Now, put this in the light of God, being the father, and disobedient children being Pinnochio. If you were God...would you let one disobedient, arrogant person whom you knew would never change....keep right on trying to persuade your other children to go his way. Like satan did in the garden of eden....He wanted to steal, kill, and destroy, and deceive people into believing that he was God, and that they would be Gods themselves if they went his way. He doesn't want to give up, and wouldn't until every person on this earth had turned away from God and all the blessings that he has planned for them here on earth, and also in heaven. That's why Jesus had to die...for the sacrifice...and that is why some people in the old testament had to die.
It was the sacrifice of one.........to save millions. I don['t know how else to explain it.... but what would you do if you were the creator of something, and it denied you existed, though it knew it was lying.....and wanted to see the whole world deny you exist. How would an earthly father feel? Let alone God.... God knows everything that each man has done, is doing, and will do for now and eternity. And everything they say....He didn't want to see His people destroyed. It was one or the other.
God, knowing the end of everything couldn't
posted by
sunshinegal
on May 29, 2005 at 9:51 AM
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cantey
i heard it was
"peace on earth AMONG men of good will."
And I can attest to that.
here and among the people I meet.
people of good will, although disparate in many ways, do seem to interact peaceably with each other.
otherwise . . .
posted by
Xeno-x
on May 29, 2005 at 6:53 AM
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I mean the NT
posted by
calmcantey75
on May 28, 2005 at 8:06 PM
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INTERESTING APPRAISEL
the OT is mostly words while the OT is mostly action.
quite a bit of action was involved in the NT I would say, for one the raising of the dead, not to mention Christs ressurection from hell itself. What you have there is life triumphing over death. To me that is the ultimate expression of action: the returning from death to life, as opposed to retreating from life to death as in the OT. The natural order of things of course is gradual death, but what Jesus Christ demonstrates is the REVERSAL: death to LIFE.
As for the OT killings, I dont know how to debate this. You have an iron clad argument. Yes God did take life, and in the minds of many humans that is NEVER justified if you are supposed to be a role model of the grandest scale.
but as I attempt to point out:
only God researves the right to decide judgement because His knowledge is perfect and complete. When you are dealing with evil and corruption, sometimes it is JUST to take life, but only God is CAPABLE of deciding these matters, not people.
posted by
calmcantey75
on May 28, 2005 at 8:05 PM
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cantey_1975
But that is still justifying God doing those actions and so it can be used by others to justify the same kind of actions in the here and now. it matters not that later on in the NT God tries to fix his image up. His actions, which are much more likely to be what people look at, are much more powerful than his words. The NT is mostly words, while the OT is much more action.
And here you are trying to justify what God did because 'it was the way things were' and that does not help. At no point does God ever really say he was wrong to do what he did or that his actions were in the a mistake. God would need to hold himself in judgment and admit that he was wrong ot act as he did in order to show by his own actions that such things are not justified.
AS long as anyone is saying God was justified in his actions in the OT which were very much violent and as far as I am concerned as wrong as can be, any such actions done in the name of God become equally justifiable and that is why such things happen as much as they do. Once believers get beyond the idea of 'do as I say, no as I do' as it pertains to God they will be able to start seeing that God made mistakes and should be held accountable if we are to start actually teaching worthy values through Biblical ideas.
Yes, I am saying God should be put in front of us for judgment and straight out admit that he made mistakes. Otherwise he is a poor teacher and role model.
posted by
kooka_lives
on May 28, 2005 at 7:49 PM
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Kooka
there was a key part of my post that escaped your scrutiny apparently.
First I will not reverse what I stated in my post. It is true, God DID COMMAND for some to be killed.
But.......as I attempted to point out, the key here is all of this occured in the age before Jesus Christ came to inaguarate the New Covenant. The earth was differnt then. Mankind was totally at odds with God.
We are not in OT times any longer. That means no more aggression. THere is now peace. Remember the angel said: Now peace on earth, goodwill towards men. There is now no justification for anyone to commit acts of aggression in the name of religion as far as Christianity is concerned.
If some choose to take OT relations between God and humanity and apply them to our times, they are in error.
THis is a key fundamental lesson you must learn about the Bible: we are in a new era, a new age, if you will.
an age of peace. That is what God intends anyway.
unfortuantly some choose to take OT stuff to justify their own twisted agenda.
posted by
calmcantey75
on May 28, 2005 at 4:29 PM
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God
Amen, Numinous. Greater is He who is in us than he that is in the world. Get thee behind us, satan. In Jesus name ...Amen!
posted by
sunshinegal
on May 28, 2005 at 3:57 PM
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Kooka
The terrible acts that you speak of were not acts of God. They were acts comitted by people. People who claimed that they were doing "God's work" in order to justify their lack of maturity and self control. We are the architects of our own reality. Blaming God for what we have become is just a very convenient way for people to excuse themselves, but we all pay the toll at the end of the ride.
posted by
Numinous
on May 28, 2005 at 3:51 PM
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mysteria
Thank You
posted by
kooka_lives
on May 28, 2005 at 3:06 PM
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your logic holds sound and true
I always learn a lot from you >KooKa<
posted by
mysteria
on May 28, 2005 at 3:04 PM
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actually god
is on my side
and it's going to do something with all you unbelievers.
posted by
Xeno-x
on May 28, 2005 at 3:01 PM
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