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Terpgirl30, he is good at heeding what the agents say, not so good at heeding at what I say.
If he listened to me he would be at some of the events gathering ideas and collecting cards and selling. We are going to go to one in a month or so
posted by
Azur
on May 22, 2005 at 6:56 PM
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Novelvision, if you go Van Gogh "brillian" you will be OK
posted by
Azur
on May 22, 2005 at 6:54 PM
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very true CarolynMoe
posted by
Azur
on May 22, 2005 at 6:53 PM
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Speaking of madness... the prophet say - "beware the pitfalls of girls/guys, gold, and glory."
posted by
cmoe
on May 21, 2005 at 4:27 PM
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Justsouno, I am the rescuer of sanity. If his time does not, I will be driven mad
posted by
Azur
on May 21, 2005 at 11:07 AM
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Elan27, ideas need to be of a time perhaps and to be the trendsetter
posted by
Azur
on May 21, 2005 at 11:05 AM
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Sometimes, it just does not click, the writing just does not appeal, for no reason. It happens, that your objective may be of different opinion that others[please don't take me wrong]! Well, I hope the fren gets the break through, though!
posted by
Elan27
on May 21, 2005 at 7:48 AM
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It must be frustrating for both of you. I read recently that publishers (here in Australia) are accepting far less manuscripts than ever before. People simply aren't buying as many books as they used to. Not that that helps...
posted by
Ca88andra
on May 21, 2005 at 5:22 AM
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MayB, thank you for your comment
"Art." To do it all is almost masochistic. And most of us get just enough strokes to barely continue. The world does operant conditioning on us all. As for me, I have great faith in pessimism. Right now, I don't even want to think about who might publish me. I think we all have some break-out idea that would put each of us over the top if only someone would take the time to see our dream. All one can hope --what
I'm hoping -- is that my fiction idea will catch the right eye
sometime in the future. So I am going to post the novel kind of as a fire and forget missile. Once in a while, I will post to it and clean it up. But if "art" was my whole life, that would be so frustrating. I'd probably go VanGough. To heck with that. N
posted by
Novelvision2020
on May 21, 2005 at 3:38 AM
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A good post. Is it possible you are a bit of a rescurer for those who have
it and can't get it going? I have never understood that but it is the same in music, poetry, painting all the arts. Some get picked and some don't I don't think all of it is quality or incredible talent at all.
His time will come.
posted by
Justi
on May 20, 2005 at 9:54 PM
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Ah...no real answer for this...
posted by
Original_Influence
on May 20, 2005 at 7:49 PM
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I think...no, I'll post it, enough typing up this party line.
(Nice plug, eh?)
posted by
majroj
on May 20, 2005 at 7:26 PM
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MayB
As long as you both agree on the situation, there isn't an issue outside of the frustration factor.
I really believe things work as they should. I hear about the impossibility of it all from writers in my online group. I queried agents who didn't know me. I got one. It will happen as it is meant to happen. Again, like I told you, the wild part is so many people will act like it happened all of sudden when you know the long, long journey this has been.
The worst part for a fiction writer is to know when to accept that something should be changed, and when to stick to his guns. I listen for common themes. For me, men stuck on a certain aspect of my plot. The women had no problem, but I heard the same thing from the guys. I knew I had to add some sort of explanation.
A guy in my writing group redid a bulk of his work because people said, "too much action, not enough dialogue." He presented it to hear, "too much dialogue, not enough action." It can make your head spin. I had agents tell me contradictory things. I was the expert in this field, so I stayed with my line of thought and found someone who trusted that. That FIRST steps is the worst.
Has he done any of the conferences where you present to agents/publishers? I've heard that's a good way to do it if you have a product done.
posted by
terpgirl30
on May 20, 2005 at 5:05 PM
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The short answer is packaging.
I've met some really good fiction writers over the years, and only a small percentage manage to make a living (or better) out of writing.
The non-fiction writers do better overall in that they do get enough to live on, but don't make (on average) as much money as the fiction writers making a living.
Having worked with both types (poets included in the "fiction" category), it's damned hard to put together a proposal for fiction that sounds like it will make money for the publishers.
Non-fiction proposals are far easier to write: you can identify the market far better, and hence have a good idea of just how many books/copies will sell.
posted by
L.E.Gant
on May 20, 2005 at 4:58 PM
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I hope that I had to look up pablum means that I don't do it.........................but I know the truth ;-)
posted by
Azur
on May 20, 2005 at 3:45 PM
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Majroj re the however: I am easy to work with, I joke, I ask people how they are, I write what I am asked, on time which means that people will try to help me if I need to ask.
Re the pablum (I had to look that up): perhaps, perhaps not. We should not completely succumb.
Yes the poet will always earn less but if that he wants to spend his time and he does well he is not the loser
posted by
Azur
on May 20, 2005 at 3:42 PM
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Terpgirl30, where to start to respond. At the end. Yes he can sustain the plot, the writing. He has listened to all comments from agents and rewritten it totally more than once. He has a mentor, a novelist, who he works with. At the start I could not read it, couldn't get on with it. Now I do read it.
I believe it will happen for him. I see that we are working at two ends of this business. I got angry recently because I am putting aside my creative goals to build a financially stable future. He is purely focusing on the creative. I told him that we each have to do both. It is unfair that I put all aside particularly when there is interest in one of my projects.
He can do the boring work standing on his head but won't. One thing he does do is to keep the household ticking over while I work my butt off.
I accept that we have to go through times like this--it will not always be like this
posted by
Azur
on May 20, 2005 at 3:36 PM
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Brilliance is always rewarded. Just ask Socrates, Gaugin, and Bert Rutan
Poetry is harder than fiction; this is like the one about Ginger Rogers being better than Fred Astaire (she had to do as he did, but backwards, in a long dress and heels, and smiling). But do poets make mlore than prose writers?
NO.
Do they make more than copywriters?
Hell no.
If the market wants pablum, and you want to sell cereal, make it pablum.
HOWEVER: there is another factor in entertainment and some other businesses. If you are not perceived as "easy to work with" and you don't establish a relationship, you will have trouble getting produced. There's tons of talent out there, editors etc are swamped with it, but only so many people who are writing the flavor they want NOW, who are easy to work with, and dependably productive.
posted by
majroj
on May 20, 2005 at 3:31 PM
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QuirklyAlone, I know I am supposed to disagree with you but I don't ;-) Likewise my low-brow non-fiction book will fly not because it is great but because that will be the thing that sustains us through this journey. Or maybe it won't fly and there will be something else later.
He just got rejected for other work he does where a year ago he was accepted for everything. I agree that this kind of work is not what he ultimately wants. The only downside is that I have to observe all of this at close hand and sometimes it is not easy for us glass half-full types
posted by
Azur
on May 20, 2005 at 3:28 PM
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lovelyladymonk, I don't worry too much about other people being better or more experienced. We are each on our journey. I know that there is often no rhyme or reason --sometimes it's just timing.
Yes I think you are right -- a break
posted by
Azur
on May 20, 2005 at 3:22 PM
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I have a theory that you'll probably disagree with, but that's okay. 
.
..see, I think he wants something for his life, has in fact thought about it a lot, and so the universe, in seeking to give him what he wants, creates certain other circumstances in his life so that eventually he can have it. In other words, he can't be successful, because his success would be standing in the way of something else that he wants more. Does that make sense?
posted by
Julia.
on May 20, 2005 at 3:20 PM
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Merryanne, that so much crap is published and he is not makes him scratch his head. I wish it would happen as it would improve the quality of my life
posted by
Azur
on May 20, 2005 at 3:19 PM
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Celeste632, yes reputations count. I was friends with an actress who was going to send off her work under a pen name. I advised her to use the name she was known by because at least that way she had a chance of getting through the door.
Have a good trip
posted by
Azur
on May 20, 2005 at 3:18 PM
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Renigade and Ginnieb, I think that market is tough and illogical. Reni he is a very fine writer. I don't sell myself short. I do sell but I have had to work very hard at it and am always learning.
posted by
Azur
on May 20, 2005 at 3:15 PM
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I agree with ginnieb, some markets can be tougher than others--although I highly doubt that you're writing is just mediocre. I bet (if he's good) that his time will come--it's just a matter of patience.
posted by
Renigade
on May 20, 2005 at 2:00 PM
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MayB
I'll relate this to an inventor I did an article on. I had a column on Inventors/Inventions for several years. I had a great, great guy who had invented a way to keep disposable razors sharp. It happened quite by accident, and had something to do with the components of his sink and how they reacted. He's an engineer, so he knew if he de-engineered it, he'd have something. It took weeks for him to tell his wife. Her reaction was, "Did you tell anyone? Good?" Everyone thought he was nuts.
Flash forward a year. He figures out the components. He puts it in an ad somewhere before he has the manufacturing process down. The orders roll in, and he can't meet them. Kiss of death to his business. He started again and eventually got his product manufactured then into various stores.
He became a millionaire at it---after 10 years. He joked with me about the "overnight success" thing. It sure looked that way from the outside, but if you looked at the whole thing, he clawed start to finish and it paid off.
That's the world of fiction writing. John Grisham's first two novels were rejected, not by publishers, but by agents. He couldn't find one. According to what I've read, it took him 26/27 times to get an agent for his 3rd book---The Firm. After that? Well, his words looked better . He sold his first book The Pelican Brief...the one no agent would touch.
Colonel Sanders? He was told 80+ times that the concept of putting fried chicken through a window where people ride up in their cars was just plain stupid. Hmmm.
Fiction is tough. You are selling a tested product. Your friend is not. He has to make his own market. I can't speak much to the marketing process or the like since I don't know the details, but I see it all the time. I just had a great script (3 parts now) pass by me, and it will be a miracle if it goes to the movies. It should. It is incredible, and I don't say that much.
I think that's why I combine many loves. I need the immediate payoff and affirmation that the way I'm doing it works. Then, I need those comfort things, and things I do because I want to. Your friend is concentrating on one; you on the other. It explains it all, if you think about it.
Does his work carry all the way through? The main gripe book editors have is that the plot makes sense for so many chapters, then the writing becomes a letdown. I just finished The Lovely Bones. I loved the beginning and the concept. I really thought the end was a pat, and that bothered me given how inventive it was. What is being said in the rejection letters? Are there common themes?
Kim
posted by
terpgirl30
on May 20, 2005 at 11:39 AM
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Just listened to an interview with a favorite author (Newbury award winner). She tried sending a book out under a pen name - it got rejected again and again. Then she sent it out under her own name, and the first publisher she sent it to accepted it.
posted by
Celeste632
on May 20, 2005 at 9:09 AM
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The markets are fickle MayB,
I hav eno idea why somethings are accepted and others are not. I read some pretty awful crap that was published and then again read some brilliant work that was passed over. There seems to be no reason.
posted by
MerryAnne
on May 20, 2005 at 8:18 AM
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MayB,
I know how you feel...I by no means consider myself to be a great writer, but I refuse to give up!! Don't give up on yourself or sell yourself short because someone may have more experience than you. It takes time to hone the craft, but if you still with it, you'll be blessed in more ways than you can imagine.
As for your friend...Encourage him. Suggest that he take a break from his writing for a few days. This sometimes helps to get those creative juices flowing again. Best wishes to you both. God bless.
posted by
lovelyladymonk
on May 20, 2005 at 8:04 AM
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MayB...
..you sell yourself short but maybe some markets are easier to get into than others? Perhaps the fiction market is especially tough? Good heavens, I'm still surprised when an article is accepted. It must be frustrating to see good work turned away.
posted by
ginnieb
on May 20, 2005 at 7:11 AM
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