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I think we are all in agreement that perfection is not presently attainable, and I don’t think anyone is disputing terminology such as illusion, fantasy, myth, etc. What we are discussing is the power of the mere CONCEPT of perfection. That is, the fact that we can indeed think about it, and the power that such a concept has in the universe.
posted by
telemachus
on April 12, 2005 at 4:49 PM
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too many people seek perfection
becauwe perfection is impossible
period.
i blogged about that within the past two days.
even the Bible doesn't recognize perfection. I've already shown that a particular passage in Matthew doesn't refer to perfection; but rather to maturity.
this demonstrates that the KJV translators perceived that perfection existed and rednered certain words to reflect their point of view.
I'll get to I Cor. soon, utilizing lexiconx and interlinear renditions.
perfection is an illusion.
like the perfect man or woman -- in the eyes of the beholders.
the lamb without blemish that was sacrificed an Yom Kippur probably had blemishes -- it was the least blemished; only the high priest had to declare it without blemish in order to use it.
so what would this make Jesus (Yeshua)? -- the lamb with fewer blemishes -- that's what I say.
perfection is a fantasy
show me perfection and I will show you its imperfections.
posted by
Xeno-x
on April 12, 2005 at 12:34 PM
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Pappy – good thinking!
As a theory it is perfect! It doesn’t matter if its fantasy, myth, illusion, or whatever, it undeniably exists as a perfect concept. And some of us optimists believe that the concept can and will ultimately be realized; that we will eventually reach that distant shore. Others, who are more pessimistic and negative, see the distant shore as only a mirage and prematurely give themselves up for drowning. Pappy, this was a unique way to approach the issue. Good thinking!
posted by
telemachus
on April 12, 2005 at 6:53 AM
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Hello Kooka,
I think you are right about people being deceived when they look for a perfect being. Anything close is likely to get their attention, and money. Thus a vibrant personality with a nice body and a good voice becomes the worshipped hero of the generation, for a time, until they get old and replaced. Getting old is the problem, of course. Perfection requires constant perfection, and that doesn't exist in life, only in theory. That's why people worship the theory of God, as a theory it IS perfect. In reality and the actions of people, it is the worship that is flawed. Our ideas of perfection are not the same, not even for the same person through time; but the idea that there IS perfection (in theory) does NOT change. Nobody tries to be flawed, or even mediocre. Even your own endless pursuit of proving there is no real god is the perfect embodiment of what that God represents, We can't change how we were made.
posted by
pappy
on April 12, 2005 at 6:08 AM
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Kooka, First, I think you are correct
that I ended my previous comment inappropriately. I apologize. I was busy at work when I was typing that in and was being rushed by someone about something else. Actually, it wasn't you that was driving me nuts, it was something else. That said, let's move on.
First, I'm very impressed that you posted the second list. The first list was initially secular in that it was again identifying tangible attributes, such as color, people, sex, flowers, ... but then it became more focused with terms like emotion, patience, discipline, humanity, and forgiving. That's great!
And then your second list continued well, containing all the things we mentioned for "ajlkhjlk". And then, this is great, you ask what are these things, in their most perfect form? God I love you! This is the very place that our meditation will take us, that is, to ask these questions of ourself. Another question to ask is how might I best engender these attributes in myself?
Like the difficulty with drawing the perfect circle, we perceive things like "patience", but then we err in practicing it, as I did, when I ended my previous comment to you too abruptly. We perceive perfect kindness, but then we inadvertently leave someone feeling mistreated, as I always accidently do when I'm speaking with you. We perceive perfect love but we sometimes allow our selfishness to mess it up. We say we want peace but we succumb to war. We say we want to be generous but we leave people in the world unfed. You get the picture.
These key concepts that you've listed, are "THE CONCEPT" that I've been speaking of. Your continued focus on them will bring them to life in your psyche. They are not my creations, or your creations, they are foundations of truthfulness and goodness! Can you embrace them with me? Can you say that you believe in them? Can you say they are worthy of perpetuating in your life and the lives of others? And most importantly, can you commit yourself to spreading and proliferating them throughout yourself and others?
posted by
telemachus
on April 11, 2005 at 8:29 PM
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Ody
What is perfect goodness?
What is perfect honesty?
What is perfect love?
What is perfect peace?
What is perfect generosity?
What si perfect loyalty?
What is perfect compassion?
And what is perfect kindness?
Trust me, you will not find a true agreement to those question among any two people. They will each give very different answers.
Also, I never did not agree to the ideas of your “ajlkhjlk”. I never said I could believe in such a being. I don't think any atheist here did. You tried to claim we would all follow it, but it never happened.
posted by
kooka_lives
on April 11, 2005 at 7:14 PM
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Ody
No, those lists would not agree.
What is the perfect color?
What are all of the attributes that are needed for the perfect parent?
What is the perfect way of showing you love someone?
What is the perfect flower?
What is the perfect emotion?
What is perfect patience?
What is the most important aspects of perfection?
Even when looking at the concept of God no two religions can truly agree on what the attributes truly are. Each religion sees a different idea of perfection in God.
Is being vengeful perfection?
Is being all forgiving perfect?
Your list of attributes I very vaguely remember, but even such a list could be disputed at to what is the level of perfection for each thing.
What is perfectly loving parent?
What is perfect discipline?
What is perfect humanity?
You are just being delusional if you believe that there is any concept of perfection that can be agreed upon.
And please stop living in a fantasy world where you think you very poorly thought out ideas have any hope of changing my mind. I had though we had already agreed we were not trying to convert each other. I am willing to debate with you as long as it is not an attempt at conversion. You ended that comment in a very insulting manner.
posted by
kooka_lives
on April 11, 2005 at 7:08 PM
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Kooka
I disagree with you that if we asked the people of the world to make a list of qualities that reflect perfection that the lists would be highly random. On the contrary, the lists would be virtually identical.
You know very well that I’ve made that list right here on blogit, with atheists such as yourself. Remember “ajlkhjlk”, the random name produced by randomly plucking letters off my keyboard so we could all have an untainted word that we could use to represent goodness, honesty, love, peace, generosity, loyalty, compassion, and kindness. Things we all said we could believe in. Do you remember? The blogit atheist could not bear to say they believed in God, but they could say they believed in “ajlkhjlk”. In doing so they embraced the CONCEPT of God! Remember that Kooka! Do you really think it would be any different if we asked the people of the world? The ideas of perfection are not so divergent and idealistic as you would have people believe, but rather they are uniform and directed to us by our Godly conscience.
Do you really think that if the people of the world are asked about perfection that they will respond with things like colors, or size, or thickness, or texture? Gimmie a facking break Dude! You too quickly discount the moral framework and the spirituality of the people of the world! The people of the world would surprise you Kooka! The people of the world would tell you that perfection engenders goodness, honesty, love, peace, generosity, loyalty, compassion, and kindness. Not silly secular things.
Find the CONCEPT man! Find it before you drive me nuts!
posted by
telemachus
on April 11, 2005 at 5:37 PM
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