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Ody
For you perfection is only about being free of faults. For me that is not perfection at all. In some ways being free of faults is a great fault in itself. I am planing on doing a whole post to explain this better because I am sure the idea is very confusing to you since you can not accept that there can be nothing that is truly perfect.
You see, we can not even agree on what perfection is.
I would not see a circle that is free of faults as being perfect because to me that is not the important aspects of perfection. To me there is a level in which it is important for things to have imperfections in order to be perfect.
You are striving for a goal that can never be reached and will most likely lead to unfufillment of life. I am accepting of reality and am therefore able to live my life to the fullest, not worrying about an impossible to reach ideal that is really more of anchor, dragging one's soul down that any kind of help. I have nothing weighting me down and in some ways I truly can achieve a higher idea of perfection than those who weigh themselves down with impossible to achieve ideals, such as yours.
I am can be the perfect 'me' and that is all one can ever truly hope to be.
The perfection you seek and the ideals behind have ruined lives through out history and will most likely ruin more as time goes by. It is a very destructive set of beliefs because it does not empower, but instead weakens a person's sense of self.
posted by
kooka_lives
on April 11, 2005 at 6:58 PM
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Color matters not, thickness matters not, the background matters not,
the size matter not. What does matter is whether you can produce a “blemish free” circle in any color, thickness, or size, and upon any background. Under progressive magnification there will always exist imperfections in the ink. It’s not the "TANGIBLE" attributes of the circle that I’m talking about, it’s the circle-lish-ness of the circle. Whether or not it is perfectly round. Whether or not there are no mars on the surface, no variances in the ink lines.
The big difference between our beliefs here is that you strive for perfection without the expectation of ever reaching your destination (you, self-admittedly, subscribe to perpetual imperfection) while I strive for perfection with full inner knowledge that I will ultimately rendezvous with God. You cannot come to this belief until you abandon your perception that your perfection as an individualistic manifestation of your own making (you are not God), and not tied into the Universal Spirit. This is recognizable by the fact that the attributes of perfection that we seek are common movements among men, not individualistic concepts of self-glorification. Coming to this realization allows you to see the movement of all things toward God. Without this, you have only death to whom you may present your imperfection, while I diligently prepare myself for God, at God’s direction.
posted by
telemachus
on April 11, 2005 at 5:12 PM
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Ody
The perfect circle...
What color should the perfect circle be?
What thickness does the line of a perfect circle need to?
What color should the background of a perfect circle be?
What size is the perfect circle?
The general idea, yeah people will agree on that. But just the basic idea is not what will make it perfect. A black circle on a white background, no matter how well drawn seem imperfect to me because it is nothing interesting. It is a very generic idea of perfection and that makes it imperfect in my eyes. For me a perfect circle would be more interesting than that. Some will find a black circle on a white background perfect for them. The true idea of perfection is not universal, but individual.
And idea of a perfect God would have to some how fit into everyone's idea of perfection at the same time to be truly perfect. Perfection is not a predetermined quality, but something everyone see differently. That is why nothing can achieve this perfect perfection. Nothing can be the idea of perfection to everyone because no one will be able to agree on the details of perfection.
So it is all illusion. It is an illusion you embrace and that is just part of who you are. I move forwards by doing what is right because I am going to be the perfect me I can be. What you are following is nothing more than what you have imagined that you wish to follow and it leads you along a very similar path that I am going down. I am just being good for the sake of being good and doing right in order to make the future a better place for all, while believers are doing it because they wish to get rewarded.
posted by
kooka_lives
on April 11, 2005 at 3:51 PM
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Kooka
Call it illusion, call it fantasy, call it conceptual, call it whatever you like, but no matter what you call it, IT EXISTS! And we who adhere to it know that it moves us and manifests itself in our beings. It can integrate you as well, if you can but find a way to believe in it. - I would never suggest that you attempt to mirror yourself after someone else's idea of perfection. On the contrary, I have always suggested to you that true direction is found within yourself, you know that. But I will contend that the direction of the conscience within you will be similar to the direction within me and the direction within others. We may think that our ideas of perfection differ because of secular influences and the nature of the cultural paradigm we have come up in, but the reality is that the Universal Spirit desires to inculcate within all of us basic attributes of goodness that we all see as valuable (peacefulness, compassion, truthfulness, honesty, integrity, etc.) I disagree with you that perfection cannot exist. Certainly, we can agree upon what a perfect circle or sphere looks like, can we not? But can we produce such a circle or sphere that would hold up as perfect under the scrutiny of infinite magnification?
posted by
telemachus
on April 10, 2005 at 7:40 PM
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Ody
You obviously completely missed the point. I am perfectly who I am. That is the only true perfection a person can ever achieve. It is fruitless to believe in any other form of perfection. I may due things that are considered imperfect, but those are only part of the perfection that is me. The idea of perfection you wish to believe in and wish to label "God' is a only an illusion. Some people find comfort in such illusion, I do not.
As for concepts having power, I will agree with that, but that still does not make those concepts to be true. For me (And many, many others) the concept of the Force from the Star Wars movies has great power (And makes much more sense than the Biblical idea of God) yet just by having power does not make ti so that here will ever be Jedi running around.
My beacon of life is being the best me I can be, not trying to live up to anyone else's ideas of perfection. I am not trying to be anything more than perfect version of myself. If you start trying to live up to other people's ideas of who you are or what you are suppose to be you start to loose yourself and soon are far from being a perfect you.
'To thy own self be true' is about the most important rule to live by in life. If you live by that you need not seek someone else's idea of perfection.
I would bet that if we were both to come up with a list of just what perfection is those lists would not agree. No tow people would ever fully agree on all the qualities that would make perfection. Why? Because the ideal perfection does not and can not exist. It can even be truly defined because in truth there are no perfect ideas of just what perfection is. You would start having to figure what a perfect loving parent is, what a perfect giving soul is, what a creator is and so on, and with all of those ideas there is not anything close to an agreed upon set of qualities. Your idea of a perfect 'God' would not be the same as some other Christian's idea. At that point if there was a 'God' out there it could not be perfect for everyone. So the only perfection even 'God' could achieve would only be one ideal of perfection, and so could never be the perfect perfection.
posted by
kooka_lives
on April 10, 2005 at 5:43 PM
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Kooka, I contend
that if we can imagine it, it exists, at least as a concept. And if a concept can manifest power, as does the “concept of God”, then clearly it is something worthy of grasping hold to. What do you have to use as your beacon in life, if not the concept of perfection? Certainly not imperfection! Your contention that you are already perfect is absurd! If you were perfect, you wouldn’t have so many typos in this post. Can you really be "PERFECTLY" satisfied with this post with all these typos in it? I think not. Please see my post tonight.
posted by
telemachus
on April 10, 2005 at 5:09 PM
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