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Make2short -- you make some very valid points
And well articulated to boot. Where I would not be so presumptious as to try to speak for Kooka I can address a couple of points that you have made. When you enquire as to the motive of someone who would engage believers in constant debate I can give you a number of good reasons why any individual would do such a thing. So called Christianity is currently experiencing a fundamentalist revival specific to continental USA. The prevailing political climate certainly plays a big role in the momentum of this revival. Most people accept the notion that society in general is in a state of moral decay and that if it is to save itself from itself it must return to basic religious values. There are many that feel this is a very undesirable path and feeling this way with good reason.
Modern day Christianity is a religion of exclusion with institutionalized and promoted discrimination against a full 20% of North America's societal populace, the number may be larger. You may care to argue this number but I will save you the time. It excludes gays which is obvious but also excludes non-believers. You may also see the latter as an invalid contention but that is only because all religions exclude the non-believer as a matter of course. This does not even begin to address the exclusion of adherants to other faith systems. Further, Christianity is viral in nature, it's adherants believing that all people must adopt this belief system and it being their duty to propogate this adoption. The fundamentalist dogma also contains a doomsday scenario in armegheddon. Excuse me for not being so thrilled about conforming to this faith system.
Where the problem lies in this business as usual approach is that if this revival continues and gains more momentum, this status quo exclusion evolves from the subtle nuances that we currently experience every day to something much more insidious. Something that much more resembles the Nazism that you try to use as an example. Hitler's Nazi Germany did not just invent itself in 1939, it evolved and grew within a groundswell of popular societal support over a 20 year period from WW1. I am not drawing a parrallel here between Christianity and Nazism but more recognizing some of the warning signs in a type of popular societal movement that history has shown us can lead to disaster. These warning signs are very subtle, seemingly only visible to those who are on the outside looking in. Upon recognition of these signs one must ask themselves what may have taken place in Nazi Germany if more people resisted the changing political climate of the era?
Writing a blog and engaging others in debate over some of the very issues that are precursing an undesirable shift in societal attitudes now assumes a much more worthy raison d'etre.
posted by
gomedome
on April 7, 2005 at 9:08 AM
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Make2short
My motives are to try and stir up some good debate. This very rarely works due to so many believers taking it personal and not wishing to look at the possibilities or able to defend their beliefs with anything more than telling me I am wrong because I am wrong and they are right.
Contrary to what some believe I am not trying to mock or say belief is wrong. I am stating things as I see them or possibilities that come tome, even if I may not agree with them. I hope to get input that both agree and disagrees with the points I make, but I wish for that input to be 'you are wrong and just don't understand a thing' which seems to be the most common reply from believers. When I try to point out to them that they proved nothing at all they got offensive and insulting towards me and then get mad when I snap back at them.
And I have said that there is something some people do gain form belief, but believers need to see that not everyone is going to be bale to believe as they do. Some people do need it and not all actions done by Christians are harmful. I make very sure that I never generalize all Christians as being the same, unlike how I have seen many Christians here generalize atheist and any members of any other religion.
I also agree that the problem is humanity. Part of my main theme that I try to get across here is opening one's mind to the possibilities and at least give them credit as having some level of merit, even if you disagree with them. Believe it or not I do respect all beliefs for what they are suppose to be, not what they are practiced as. When I try to get some Christians here to show respect for other beliefs that is very often when I see the worst of them. They get very offended that they need to show beliefs to others, while demanding a higher level of respect back. So times it comes off more like a sporting event for them and not a beliefs system. They seem to be trying real hard to prove that hey are right and so are the winner, all the while really not paying attention to what it is they are suppose to be believing in and following.
I do thank you for your comment. You do seem to have a much better grasp than many of the other Christians I have dealt with here.
posted by
kooka_lives
on April 7, 2005 at 8:11 AM
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There are many who
believe that religious belief comes from a certain area of the brain and is a form of self delusion. Although most of us pick and choose what to believe based on our experience, there is a lot of evidence that Jesus lived, died and rose again. The text of the New Testament has better documentation that any other book written in that time period. The problem for you and other rationalists is that you cannot except miracles and other events that seem outside of the rules of nature.
It is easy to pick on Christianity and other religions by mocking the idiots who profess to believe but there are many intelligent and rational Christians who believe that although it seems to be against reason to believe in "miracles" that is it very possible that the creator could make exceptions to his own design. All that we can do is suggest that Christianity has historical evidence and that proving that God does not exist is impossible. Although many things that Christians do is distasteful, there are many caring and compassionate Christians who take in the homeless, rescue drug addicts, care for victims of AIDS, fueled the civil rights movement and protested against every war by being put in jail.
Although debate is really fun, it doesn't work unless you agree to the same rules in a debate. How can a pure rationalist accept evidence of miracles? How can a believer in God deny what God has done for them, even if it can't be described in rational terms? Most atheists are very well educated whereas many believers who choose to argue with you are not. So you will win your own challenge because you are not both coming from the same point of view.
I wonder at your motives, since in your arguments in seem to be a generally caring and sympathetic person.
For many of us, I included, the world would be a very dark place if God was not in it. Your arguments do not threaten me, since I am secure in my faith. But I wonder what the point is of antagonizing those for whom belief in God is so important that they will insult and slam those who disagree with them.
Rather than the world being a better place if no one was "decieved about religion," the world would be far worse. The religious wars do not come close to the actions of the anti Christian nazis and the atheist Soviet Union. You may be sane, but not all that agree with you are. That doesn't mean that i defend the actions of those who have destroyed in the name of religion. What i mean is that the problem isn't religion, but humanity itself. Reason, just as religion can be used to justify hatred as well as condemn it.
posted by
Make2short
on April 6, 2005 at 10:29 PM
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