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Is that correct to say that Satan
is known because of the Bible? I mean, those who wrote the Bible also invented Satan. Once you believe in the Bible, you must also believe in Satan. So Satan should be real at least, as real as Jesus...
posted by
Luxbring
on October 11, 2005 at 12:16 AM
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Gheeghee
Was there any point at all to that last comment?
posted by
kooka_lives
on February 28, 2005 at 5:26 PM
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"The grandeur of [the Torah, or Pentateuch] is the result of a careful and complex joining of several historical traditions, or sources. These are primarily four: the so-called Yahwist, Elohist, Priestly and Deuteronomic strands that run through the Pentateuch. Each Brings to the Torah its own characteristics, its own theological viewpoint--
a rich variety of interpretation that the sensitive reader will take pains to appreciate." (From the New American Bible, St. Joseph Edition, 1992, page 1)
posted by
Gheeghee
on February 28, 2005 at 7:26 AM
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Gheeghee
The site I really loved that you had there was the middle of your comment (The Literary history of the Pentateuch). That site talks about how the Bible is a composite of many different stories form many different writers over a vast amount of time. Basically all of what is being claimed as Moses dictating from God is more than likely someone piecing various versions of many stories together to form the stories of the Old Testament, quite likely because those stories were changed through different telling of them as they spread around.
Such ideas very much help to show many of my points here. The Bible is very much the word of Man, not God. It is just a collection of stories that were being passed around and changed as needed by those who were using them to get people to think how they wished for people to think.
I have to thank you so much for finding such a great piece to help back up my point. I was unaware that you followed such ideas, but am more than glad that you are seeing things clearer now and are willing to point out such ideas
posted by
kooka_lives
on February 27, 2005 at 7:33 PM
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Click here (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/asbook06.html) to read about the people of Israel, the original keepers of the first five books of what we now call the Bible.
posted by
Gheeghee
on February 27, 2005 at 4:22 PM
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Any of the following links offer interesting information about Bible history.
http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/HEBREWS/TORAH.HTM
http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/
http://www.ucalgary.ca/~eslinger/genrels/DocHypothesis.html
http://homepages.bw.edu/~rfowler/imagemaps/pentateuch.htm
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/
posted by
Gheeghee
on February 27, 2005 at 4:19 PM
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Gheeghee
Historically according to the Biblical ideas, it was Moses through being dictated to God. In reality there really is no way of knowing. Most likely it was the kind of story that was passed down from generation to generation and ended up being used in the Bible as a way to present the idea to people that they should be willing to follow what the religious leaders where telling them because the God they were presented might test you, but will reward you in the end, or some such BS as that. Basically it was story that very clearly was used to try and get believers to not question what they were told to do by those in power. It shows God as not only as a petty, ego maniac who is only concerned with getting people to follow him no matter what, even if it logically should leave both the father and the son emotionally scared for life, but also as s great deceiver. If I had to time really pick apart some other stories of the Bible I can show you examples in just about any Biblical story where God is deceiving man. That story is just so in your face about it that I figured there could be no questioning it.
posted by
kooka_lives
on February 27, 2005 at 3:12 PM
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the serpent is not named satan
jesus called the sadducees & ct. a brood of vipers.
people like to use this as the genesis prophecy -- "thous shalt bruise his heel and he shall bruise thy head" as a connection
and there still is no name given to the serpent.
just innuendo
posted by
Xeno-x
on February 27, 2005 at 1:51 PM
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Kooka, you seem to know so much about the Bible. Tell me, who actually wrote the story you are refrencing here?
posted by
Gheeghee
on February 27, 2005 at 9:15 AM
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Gheeghee
Yes, after the new Testament was written and the Character of Satan was created by man, there ended up being a connection between the two. Although just calling Satan a serpent does not mean he was the serpent of Eden. Even then, that one event does not prove Satan to be evil. Once more we are getting a very limited view of the events. After all it still was God who threw man out and was not willing to forgive
An example of God deceiving man...
Well you have the time he told Abraham to kill his son and then right as he was about to told him it was all just a test to see if he would do. That was pure deception that was just sick and twisted.
posted by
kooka_lives
on February 26, 2005 at 3:15 PM
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"There is an appointed time for everything," Kooka, even "a time to dance." Ecclesiastes 3:1, 3:4
posted by
Gheeghee
on February 26, 2005 at 2:01 PM
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also remember
we're talking king james here
16th century anglicism derived from medieval religious thought that had a whole lot of superstition in it.
so they took the original language and interpreted it to their medieval perceptions.
satan, just like much of modern Christianity, still retains that medieval misperception.
posted by
Xeno-x
on February 26, 2005 at 7:29 AM
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good argument Kooka
We want to put all evil onto something else and ship it out somewhere instead of facing it directly and dealing with it.
next you want to see either god or satan, look in the mirror, folks.
posted by
Xeno-x
on February 26, 2005 at 7:27 AM
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"God very often has deceived in order to teach man a lesson." Such as?
posted by
Gheeghee
on February 26, 2005 at 7:20 AM
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"It was the serpent who tricked Eve." Righto, dearie, and Satan is the name humans gave that "serpant." Renaming the deceiver does not change the nature of the being. Remember your Shakespeare? "A rose by any other name..."
posted by
Gheeghee
on February 26, 2005 at 7:13 AM
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pappy
There really is nothing in that comment that I can disagree with.
posted by
kooka_lives
on February 25, 2005 at 3:56 PM
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Gheeghee
It was the serpent who tricked Eve. After they created the character of Satan. it was then claimed that eh serpent was Stan, but that is not part of the original story.
Also if deception alone is all that matter in regards to one being good or evil, then God is just as bad, if not worse than what many claim Satan to be. God very often has deceived in order to teach man a lesson.
That idea does not even come close to backing up the modern concept of Satan.
posted by
kooka_lives
on February 25, 2005 at 3:55 PM
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Kooka, I'm with roofpig on this one
I don't believe in Satan as a person or thing either. Satan exists the same way Santa does, because everyone knows something about the
idea of it. There IS most certainly evil influence in the world and I don't know where it comes from. Some people really do delight in destruction and causing misery. Whether it is
because of a devil or whether it just
seems like it must be a devil doesn't matter at all. The destruction and misery is undeniable and the people who delight in it don't seem to be getting any better or fewer. They foul the nest and I think they must be eliminated but only a higher power can do that. When we try, it just gets worse.
posted by
pappy
on February 25, 2005 at 2:13 PM
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If Satan's cause was just, he would not have had to use deception in order to enlist Eve.
posted by
Gheeghee
on February 25, 2005 at 1:21 PM
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I don't why everyone hates Satan. I think he's a great guy. I get presents from him every year.
...what? Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you said Santa.
posted by
roofpig
on February 25, 2005 at 5:38 AM
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