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Gheeghee
You make it very, very clear that such is what you believe. I can read you see and I read what you write and say. You comments very much reflect you need to not accept any ideas that are not purely the way you see the world and you very much so that you do not understand how anyone can see the world differently than you do.
posted by
kooka_lives
on February 22, 2005 at 8:45 AM
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"You wish for all people to view the Biblical idea of God as you do and not doubt anything." How do you know this is what I believe?
posted by
Gheeghee
on February 21, 2005 at 10:26 AM
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Gheeghee
I am rejecting no information about God. I am looking at the bigger picture. You are very limited in what you wish for me to look at. You wish for me to look at only a small part of what is out there and look at it the way you and others who believe so strongly look at it. I wish to look at it with an open mind and look at the full amount of information that is out there.
You are mostly upset because you do not understand that people can take the same information and see different things in it. This goes with my idea you do not like about how we create our own 'truths' through our beliefs. You wish for all people to view the Biblical idea of God as you do and not doubt anything.
posted by
kooka_lives
on February 20, 2005 at 3:13 PM
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Gheeghee
"Since you yourself claim the Bible is bunk, why would you use it as a basis of your understanding of God?"
What else does one use when talking about the Biblical idea of God? It would be like trying to talk about the character Tom Sawyer without ever reading the book or making any references to it.
posted by
kooka_lives
on February 20, 2005 at 3:08 PM
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Gheeghee
I very clearly said this if one were to take the comment out of context as you did, it could say what you claimed it to say. if one took it as a whole and read it in context as it was meant to be read, then it was far from having the meaning you tried to give it by taking it out of context.
So I guess I used to many words, but the answer is no, the comment as a whole clearly did not imply such.
posted by
kooka_lives
on February 20, 2005 at 3:06 PM
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"very clearly says that ever if there are not answers to those questions there is still value in looking at the questions." It's not the act of looking at the questions that are at issue in my comment, but your rejecting information about God hindering your quest for answers.
posted by
Gheeghee
on February 20, 2005 at 12:11 AM
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"I do not go off of the idea that God is bad. I look at the way God is presented (Not talked about) in the Bible. I can not help it is the Biblical idea of God is not a very positive one." Since you yourself claim the
Bible is bunk, why would you use it as a basis of your understanding of God?
posted by
Gheeghee
on February 20, 2005 at 12:04 AM
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"Here is the full ....accept here." So are you saying you DID mean to insinuate or are you saying you DID NOT mean to insinuate? (Your response did not answer my question at all, as it was a YES or NO question.)
posted by
Gheeghee
on February 19, 2005 at 11:52 PM
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it is my opinion
that the universe cannot be understood without believing in God and having relationship with Him. I mean, whats the point of the thing anyway? We need to plug into a higher intelligence in order to get the" birds eye view' over all these mind boggling concepts such as where did the matter come from to start the universe with, and the emergant properties of the human biological system. Just consider this example: hydrogen bonds are very weak and so water in our bodies have high specific heat capacity. When our body temp rises, the H+ bonds break and the heat is released and evaporation commences thus cooling the body. Perspiration cools due to this phenomenon. This is all because of weak hydrogen bonds which contribute to many other emergant properties in our bodies. Now what guides and arranges all of this amazing almost miraculas detail in our bodies? What do you think Kooka? The body is filled with these fail safe mechanisms; obviously the product of a wise, compassionate intelligence in my opinion. It is as if someone thought of everything. Like when you sit down , somehow you never manage sit on and squash your balls, ever notice that? The bible does say we have been crowned with tender mercies.
posted by
drasticmeasures
on February 19, 2005 at 9:43 PM
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drasticmeasures
Believe it or not my mind I far from being closed. That is not the same thing as being able to change my mind and believe in the concept of God. I am trying to figure out this strange creature called man and so I can never close my mind to all possibilities if I am ever to get even a glimpse into what makes man do as man does.
Truth be told I really think there has never been a person to roam this Earth who has gotten it right. We do not really have a clue as to how things work. we have possibilities and beliefs, but nothing more. In the end there is a real good chance that we shall all die without ever learning the way the universe really is. But we will each die with our own beliefs. Of course that will not stop me from trying to figure it all out.
posted by
kooka_lives
on February 19, 2005 at 7:06 PM
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dont be gullible
just try hard to never close your mind to any possibility, even if there is no evidence of it or if it doesn't make sense. Dont you agree that is the best way to most effectivly gather intelligence?
posted by
drasticmeasures
on February 19, 2005 at 6:12 PM
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drasticmeasures
While I will agree that the Bible does have some great lesson in it, at the same time it has some horrible ones. While there is a logic to being meek at times, there is also a logic to being proud when the situation is there. If a teacher is not proud enough, then that teacher can not really teach. I am truly very teachable. But I have to remain true to who I ma and not just accept everything I am told. There is a level in which being too meek and too humble is more destructive than pride. You can not allow your self to be gullible and let others control your beliefs and your life. You have to know yourself and be willing to stray true to who you are, even if it means being prideful at times.
posted by
kooka_lives
on February 19, 2005 at 3:43 PM
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Pappy
'fundamental beliefs never change on a whim'
And I believe that most belief are truly fundamental. We call the more hard-core and aggressive beliefs by that title, but in general those who have solid beliefs, even if they are quiet about them, really have fundamental beliefs. Otherwise one's beliefs really are not that strong and so have not been settled upon. At that point there is not beliefs that have been chosen either, just played around with to see if they fit.
I don't believe that there is no meaning at all if there is no God. Such thinking seems to be an easy way out. Life has meaning without the idea of God. Life is not fair, but that does not mean it has no meaning. We are all part of something greater than us, the universe. By doing right and making a future for mankind we are doing our part as a function of the universe. We should not worry about future justice or reward, but about making things better here on earth for future generations.
'Stranger in a Strange Land' is one of those on my list of 'I need to get around to reading'. Most likely someday I will get around to reading it. That list just keeps growing no matter how much I read.
I would like to thank you for your comment. That is generally what I am looking for. You came out and did not dance around the questions, but instead answered them according to your beliefs. Some of what you said I did not agree with and saw fault with, but that is all part of sharing ideas. You did such a great job of expressing your beliefs that I found ti hard to stop writing here, but since I do have other things to do tonight, I can not go on reply to you all evening. I feel bad about not being able to address your comment point for point, because it has been one of the best comments I have received that can get some good debate going. It is a great example of what I would like to see here.
Thank You for being honest and straight forward. I do not get enough of such comments. I hope that other who share your beliefs can learn from you here.
posted by
kooka_lives
on February 19, 2005 at 3:37 PM
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Straightforward
Thank You
posted by
kooka_lives
on February 19, 2005 at 3:21 PM
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Gheeghee
I do not go off of the idea that God is bad. I look at the way God is presented (Not talked about) in the Bible. I can not help it is the Biblical idea of God is not a very positive one.
Also these question are fairly neutral. I look at the world and what I see happening around me and these are the questions that are there
Here is the full quote by the way "You will accept the lack of answers because of your faith, but that still does not mean those questions should not be asked and thought about." Since you only took the last half of that and seemed to deiced to focus fully on just that part as being a comment towards you, of course you would find it insulting, especially if you were guilty of it. However, the whole of the comment is clearly a general statement and not focused on you. It very clearly says that ever if there are not answers to those questions there is still value in looking at the questions. Were you not the one who went off about not taking things out of context when I was talking about the first three commandments? I am sure once more you will somehow find a way to make it sound like you are not being hypocritical or contradictory when you picked only half of sentence and take it way, way out of context, compared to me taking the full version of the three commandment and talking about what is very clearly said there. You might wish to take responsibility for your actions and your choice here to try and discredit me by taking my comment out of context in order to make me look bad. The consequences are yours to accept here.
You do not have a choice in any matters of faith, unless you do not have true faith. You have yet ot provide any proof that says otherwise. Now that does not mean you should not be accountable for your own actions and such. But faith and beliefs are not the same as actions. One's actions generally come from their beliefs and so their actions are based there, but their actions more so than their beliefs are more likely to go against who a person is at times due to situation. Beliefs however, since they are a deeper and more personal level are much harder to have control over. Unless of course you are saying you are able to go against who you are.
Can you go against who you are? I already know how hard such things are for me. It would take a life or death situation for me to go against who I am. I have to be true to myself before anything else in life, otherwise I ma a lie and my life becomes meaningless.
posted by
kooka_lives
on February 19, 2005 at 3:21 PM
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drasticmeasures
Pray to who? I do not believe there are any beings higher than man who are able to hear prayers. It would be a waste of time and it would go against who I am.
posted by
kooka_lives
on February 19, 2005 at 3:03 PM
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Gheeghee
It is very much a contradiction to make the claim that you are able to changed your beliefs on a whim, yet it would take God itself to come in order to get you to make that change. If God's influence is needed in order to get you to change your beliefs then that means you are not able to change them on a whim. And by the way
'The follow up question of course is 'When did you choose you faith?'
Every second of every day of my life.'
So every second of every day you make a conscious choice to believe in God? That would then mean that you doubt your belief that often and have to come to the conscious conclusion that there is God. Funny I have never doubted my beliefs enough to ever have to make a choice about them.
My guess is that you really can not answer that question because you know you never made a real choice to believe. You just believed. If you would just admit to this kind of thing to begin with you would show much more integrity instead of dancing around. You only help to back up my points when you try to rewrite definitions.
Yes, You could rob a back, but due to your nature and who you are you really can't. Unless of course you go against who you are. It is an option, but not a choice. There are many, many options out there, but when those options are against your nature you really are unable to choose them.
posted by
kooka_lives
on February 19, 2005 at 3:02 PM
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the universe operates by laws of physics
our bodies operate by biological and chemical laws. In the same manner, God and the realm of the SPIRIT operate by laws. Its up to you to discover those laws, they are all in the bible. Remember the words of Jesus: Blessed are the meek ( humble, teachable) for they shall see ( perceive, understand) God. But God resists the proud, and gives grace ( ability) to the humble. If you do decide to discover these laws, be sure you do it it with the right attitude, otherwise you will only see what you want to see. The Bible is alive and it is not of this world, if you want to connect with it, you must connect according to a LAW.....which is meekness.
posted by
drasticmeasures
on February 19, 2005 at 11:12 AM
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Hello Kooka
I understand the part about you not looking for answers, I suspect you have already formed them, but I appreciate the opportunity to air out some of my beliefs. For my part, I don't expect to change your mind or anyone else's. In answer to one of the questions, fundamental beliefs never change on a whim, or even as the result of a good argument. They may change slowly under the pressure of accumulated evidence but it is amazing how long people can hang on to proven error, and it is much more difficult to change an unprovable faith.
First, let me combine several questions if I may and answer them together.
Why does God not heal the innocent child while he lets the wicked prosper?
This question has been asked, and answered, many times in the bible and by authors through the ages and you've already heard it and rejected it. It goes to the fundamental question of what are we doing here on this earth, anyway? If there is no god, then it is an answer you can accept, ugly though it is. It means there is no meaning at all. Life is about making babies and all the rest is hopeless, a sideshow to entertain and divert our attention so we will forget the pain for a while and continue to make more babies. We are mere slave to the principle of propagation. But if there is a God who is responsible for the creation, then the question becomes what can we infer, deduce, or extrapolate about His nature given the data we have? We cannot get to those answers from the point of view of there being no God. It would be like a chemist trying to figure out the qualities of a chemical compound from the point of view that there was no chemical compond, or that chemistry was just superstitious nonsense. Having faith that there is God does not take anything away from you any more than understanding chemistry does, except that it dispells superstitious nonsense about nature and science. It is a tool for the perception.
The answer to the question about the child becomes easy. Death is a tragedy to the family and friends of the child who will never forget their loss, but it is not a tragedy to the child. Death is evil only to the unfaithful. The child's innocence will find eternal reward while the reverse is true for the wicked. We are put on this earth to learn and to grow and with the right attitude suffering will make us stronger.
Where does common sense stop and faith start?
That's a good question, kooka. Have you read the science fiction classic 'Stranger in a Strange Land'? The hero from another place was willing to die for his principles at the drop of a hat. In past centuries some people were willing to die or kill for their 'honor' but now we are more 'civilized' it seems and we compromise at the drop of the hat. Faith and common sense are methods of deciding when choosing a course of action. Living by faith is more uncompromising and common sense usually means what's best for survival. What seems like common sense at the time is sometimes proven wrong by history, but how could the Jews have known where the trains were taking them? We would all risk our lives for our families, but it's murky about taking risks for ideas.
To answer the question, faith must handle the wheel but we don't throw common sense out, it just goes to the back seat.
Are all sins equal and is the course of nature the same as God's will?
Your logic is faultless, kooka, and you've gone straight to the heart of the matter. There is not a lifetime long enough to hear all that has been said about sin, but the bible only talks about one being worse than the rest, and it is unbelief. With belief, all can be forgiven but without it there is no help. But what is sin? To my understanding it is the separation that exists between the creator and the creation. In terms of science, I would call it our inability to visualize higher dimensions than the three plus time we know. In practical terms, there is a wide gulf in understanding. We can teach monkeys to understand and communicate in sign language. They can even demonstrate emotions and refer to themselves from other's points of view but they will never learn to become human. Some would argue that smart monkeys in cages are worse off than wild ones, but there is some value in the friendship they share with humans. My logic tells me that by our own efforts we will never learn to become God, but my faith holds it is worth the effort to try to become His friend by learning to do His will.
Finally; no, I don't think it is a sin to put a band aid on a cut, no matter how deep.
Thanks again kooka for letting me post in your space.
posted by
pappy
on February 19, 2005 at 10:47 AM
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Cheers to the raising of questions! Irrev. Straightforward is listening!
posted by
Straightforward
on February 18, 2005 at 11:58 PM
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"...those questions should not be asked and thought about." To me, this statement insinuates that I told you it's not ok to ask. Is this what you intended?
"There really are no answers for most questions about God." I don't know about anyone else's questions, because I am not a mind reader. I have noticed, however, that all of YOUR questions assume God is the "bad guy:" the guy that doesn't answer prayer, the one that made things so hard for us, the one that wants to (how did you put it?) BEAT US. As your assumptions are not true to God as He IS, your questions are asked in vein, and, because you choose to reject any and all information regarding God as He IS, you may never realize this, even though I'm telling it to you right now.
I believe that I have a choice in all matters of faith on every level, as I believe that I am accountable for my own actions. I believe that faith is only authentic when an honest attempt is made to represent the absolute truth in EVERY action made by the faithful. I believe faith is STILL authentic when mistakes are made in our actions when such honest attempts are made.
I believe faith is NOT authentic when it's object of worship is anything other than God as He IS.
In all areas of my life, I make my choices, and I accept any and all consequences of my choices. (I may not LIKE it, but I accept nonetheless.) Matters of faith are no different. I believe that to deny our choice is only an attempt to deny the consequences of our own actions. Lack of faith is an action, and there are consequences to living a life without faith. I believe that a consequence is a state of existence resulting from an action, nothing more, nothing less.
posted by
Gheeghee
on February 18, 2005 at 11:48 PM
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Pray
posted by
drasticmeasures
on February 18, 2005 at 11:06 PM
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And to answer your first question as you reasked it: YES.
posted by
Gheeghee
on February 18, 2005 at 9:58 PM
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"Are you aware you really contridcted yourself here." I did not contradict myself, as you did not present variations on the same question for me to contradict.
Can you choose to change your beliefs on a whim?
The question is CAN I choose my beliefs, which I take to mean, do I have the ability to change my beliefs on a whim, in which case, yes I can. I can also rob a bank, it doesn't mean I will.
What would it take to get you to change your beliefs?
I took the question to mean, "what would pursuade me to make the choice to change my beliefs?" which is not the same thing as "can I change my beliefs?" My answer stands: God Himself.
The follow up question of course is 'When did you choose you faith?'
Every second of every day of my life.
posted by
Gheeghee
on February 18, 2005 at 9:57 PM
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The answer
my friend
is blowin' in the wind;
the answer is blowin' in the wind.
posted by
Xeno-x
on February 18, 2005 at 2:02 PM
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And
I did go and reword that first question. It was a little awkward and had a typo in it.
posted by
kooka_lives
on February 18, 2005 at 12:17 PM
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Gheeghee
Are you aware you really contridcted yourself here.
"Can you choose to change your beliefs on a whim?
Yes.
What would it take to get you to change your beliefs?
God Himself."
If it takes God himself to make you change your beliefs, then you can not change your beliefs on a whim. I know why you answered 'yes' to the first one, because you are still trying to make the claim that faith is something we can make a conscious choice over, but your answer to the second one clearly shows you do not have any choice over your faith.
My answer toe ht first one would very mush be 'no', but I am very much aware of the simple fact that true faith is not chosen. While at some level my answer to the second would be about the same. In order for me to change my faith it would take God himself fully and completely revealing himself to me directly.
The follow up question of course is 'When did you choose you faith?'
I have to say this is the most direct and honest you have been. You danced a little, but not like you normally do. And your answers did back up one of the basic ideas I try to present. There really are no answers for most questions about God. It comes down to faith and what you believe in. You will accept the lack of answers becuase of your faith, but that still does not mean those questions should not be asked and thought about.
posted by
kooka_lives
on February 18, 2005 at 12:14 PM
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Is there any the power of faith in unseen forces?
Are you asking if the power of faith in unseen forces exists? Are you asking if there's power in placing faith in unseen forces? To both of these I answer YES.
If there is a God and that God does not answer people praying for the life of an innocent child, why would he do such a thing?
The God I believe in answers all prayers, so I really cannot answer this question.
If prayers are answered, then why did God not answer such a simple one?
The God I believe in answers all prayers, so I really cannot answer this question.
Does God answer prayers about meaningless things such as wealth and which team will win the big game, yet ignore prayers about something important such as the life of a child?
The God I believe in answers all prayers, so I really cannot answer this question.
Did you choose your beliefs?
Yes.
Can you choose to change your beliefs on a whim?
Yes.
What would it take to get you to change your beliefs?
God Himself.
Do you believe that those who do not believe as you do have just as strong of beliefs as you do?
I don't know the depth of what others believe, so I cannot say.
What is more accurate, a book written thousands of years ago and changed through out time to fit the ideas of the time and very often used by people to gain power over others, or what has been scientifically proven?
That all depends on what you are looking for in the book or data.
If you believe there is a God, why does that God not punish the wicked in this life at all?
I don't know how to answer this, as I believe that the state of being wicked in this life (which can carry over into the next life) is the "punishment."
At what level do you throw common sense out the window in favor of faith?
At any level, it's possible to throw common sense out the window when your faith is not based on truth.
What does God justify and what does God not tolerate at all?
As I only partially understand how my own mind works, I can’t possibly grasp how God’s mind works. I could tell you what I don’t tolerate, but that’s not what you are looking for here.
If all sins are equal in the eyes for God then is killing in God's name a sin still?
YES, YES, YES. The commandment does not read “thou shalt not kill except for in my name” in any translation of scripture I've ever read.
Is it a sin to use God as an excuse to commit a sin in the fist place?
ABSOLUTELY: Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vein.
If God gives us some life threatening ailment at birth then is it not completely and total blasphemy for anyone to try to change that?
As I don't believe God gives us life threatening ailments, I really can't answer this question.
Are we fighting against God's wishes when we do such things as plastic surgery to fix our bodies or organ transplants to help us live longer?
It depends on why we are trying to live longer.
How much of our flaws are really part of God's design and do we have the right to fix them?
I do not know how God's mind works, but I trust that nothing about the design of God is flawed, therefore there is nothing to fix.
posted by
Gheeghee
on February 18, 2005 at 10:06 AM
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