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atheists do change
it's not atheism that changes them
it's not god either
it
s just changing
posted by
Xeno-x
on January 30, 2005 at 3:25 PM
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Kooka, I love this post. I always learn something.
posted by
Kelli
on January 30, 2005 at 11:20 AM
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Atheists can be saved too
Kooka, saved from the insanity of Christian language within society that demeans humanity as inherently evil. Not all those who don't believe in God understand why they have that "lack of belief" and what is at the root of their choices in life. There are few humans who start life and continue throughout with the language that there is nothing "wrong" with their nature. You write a good post from the Atheist view, but there is much more at work within society to manufacture "bad behavior." The reality of class distinction and prejudice, discrimination, and elitism run rampant in our education system, the work place and community. We don't do enough to magnify the GOOD humans do as an expression of their own inner identity--too much is given off to those who toute God as the source or reason for doing good.
Peace,
FR
posted by
freerain
on January 30, 2005 at 11:16 AM
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beleive me, I am not advocating
a person not taking responsibility for their actions. What I mean by grim is As a Christian I do not beleive God ever intended human beings to have to carry burdens and weights( resulting from failure and mistakes). But if you screw your life up, God is available to help you get back on track, but it does not mean he will remove the need for commitment and hard work to get back on track from our plate. I dont think Christianity offers an easy out, just help. The statement " God helps those who help themselves" is actually true.
So the grim thing I was referring to is the prospect of no God to help out during the storms and trials of life. To a person who has never believed in God, it would not seems grim, just realistic.
posted by
calmcantey75
on January 29, 2005 at 8:48 PM
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Kooka then it happens that I see another that is actually threatening
bodily harm and I just want to grab my stomach and roll around on the floor laughing hysterically but then I feel bad for them. They don't feel bad for me and in fact they seem to like to tell me that I am going to burn forever. Charles Mansonistic.
posted by
Kelli
on January 29, 2005 at 8:05 PM
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Kooka, right, I have never felt a need to justify myself because I know
what I feel and it is the truth for me. I'm always interested in new ways to expand my belief, but not if it has to do with limitations. Who would limit something undefined? Who would even want to and where would they start? You don't have to answer that. I just wonder sometimes why the majority of the world doesn't feel this way and then so does that make me wrong? or fortunate?
posted by
Kelli
on January 29, 2005 at 8:02 PM
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Kelli
That sounds a lot like atheism really. It is just you seem to have a belief in God, but something far from the biblical idea of God. And that goes into what I have often said about faith needing to be a personal thing in order for it to be real. You seem to have a personal set of beliefs (Which are very similar to what I think my wife believes) and so your are more comfortable in your beliefs. That is most likely one reason as to why you are very open to talking about beliefs and not getting emotional when new ideas are presented to you All in all a very healthy mentality.
posted by
kooka_lives
on January 29, 2005 at 7:56 PM
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kooka, I believe also that forgiveness comes from within yourself. Not any
body else because personally speaking, even thinking God has forgiven me means nothing to the way I feel about myself inside. I kind of connect God with the inside of myself. So....I don't know what I am, but then again, no one has ever really bothered to care and if I'm content with not knowing such a simple thing as that but knowing how I feel inside, then I'm going to be content and not some name. You know?
posted by
Kelli
on January 29, 2005 at 7:49 PM
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kelli
Not 'saved' in the biblical sense. They can turn their lives around and do good and see that it is better to be a positive influence than a negative one. But the general idea of being saved is not the same thing. An atheist is not going to just be forgiven for his/her 'sins'. That is something they have to work out on their own. No higher power is going to tell them they are forgiven and that all is well. They have to find true closer for their misdeeds and work to right what wrong they have caused.
This make is it so the most logical way to follow the idea is to just not do wrong to begin with, which is why criminal, who have already done wrong, would not find it appealing. With atheism you do not start off in sin and so can stay good. With Christianity you start off with sin and are told you are going are a sinner and will always sin. Right there it suddenly becomes easier to just do wrong from time to time and ask for forgiveness, since from birth it is already too late..
posted by
kooka_lives
on January 29, 2005 at 7:43 PM
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jackie
How is taking responsibility for your own actions grim?
Realistically yes, once you have made a mistake you are out of luck. Of course after you make the mistake there is the chance of making a change. But you really should still have to fully face the consequences of that mistake with no easy way out or justification for your actions. The thing is it is going to be all your own work and effort to turn it around. You can not just sit back and think you can just have a higher power be the thing to save you. You can not fall back on excuses or find justification to do wrong. The basic idea is that you need to do right because this is the only chance you get at it. You can't just ask to be forgiven and figure all is well and now you can die.
Atheism is not an easy way out of your guilt. I think that is why atheist generally do not feel as guilty about things as Christians. Christians have their easy way out of being forgiven by God so they din more things that are sins and are wrong, so that they have more to be guilty about. This makes them feel better somehow because by being guilty of everything they are being good to there ideas of God. An atheist is only going to feel guilty about truly bad things they do that are truly wrong.
posted by
kooka_lives
on January 29, 2005 at 7:36 PM
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Kooka, but if atheism is not about being saved why relate the two? An
atheist could be saved if they felt the need but why would that occur if they remained an atheist? Hey, What the heck are we talking about, why talk about saving atheists? Raving atheists I could understand....lol
posted by
Kelli
on January 29, 2005 at 7:31 PM
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kelli
That can be said about any beliefs though. Atheism is not about 'being saved' at all. It is really just about living life with the understanding that you and you alone are responsible for your own deeds. This life here and now matters and so you have to live it right and do right, because if you do not then you have waste your life. So those who have wasted their lives, such as your criminal types, will find little use in the ideas of atheism because then they would have to see the truth and accept they have wasted their lives and the only chance they get. I can see why they would find the ideas of Christianity much more appealing.
Basically Atheism can not save a person, that person has to save themselves just by being a better person, not by any act of faith.
posted by
kooka_lives
on January 29, 2005 at 7:27 PM
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atheism sounds very bleak and grim to me by this account
Survival of the fitest in all of its brutal reality( when it is applied to the human soul). If you have messed up your life, well then, it is to late for you. You should have been stronger. You should have been wiser. Now just get out of the way and finish your existence. Tough luck.
but maybe that is a more real and true grasp of the universe. Good post.
posted by
calmcantey75
on January 29, 2005 at 5:31 PM
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maybe just "You can't be saved if you don't want to"?:)
posted by
Kelli
on January 29, 2005 at 5:04 PM
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