Go to The Reverend Kooka Speaks About Religious Bulls#!t
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- Go to RESPECT VS OBEDIENCE
ya gotta unnerstan
it's humans that want the obedience
and then they invent a god that wants such too.
I left the church I'd been attending for several years because a big shot made the statement, "God requires obedience rather than knowledge."
Then there are those that believe in obedience. I've seen clergy who will require obedience ot them and they in turn will make obeisance, virtually, to those whom they consider to be higher in status.
I believe that we should show favoritism to no one. All are equal. All put their pants on one leg at a time. All have the same bodily functions (make an exception for male and female differentiations). All can be horse's asses and I'm sure beneath that holy exterior, even the Pope is. I've seen the holy appearance of bishops and priests in the local Catholic Church and then seen the attitude toward regular people as expressed in the local Jesuit University gobbling up land, and the Archdiocese running roughshod over people, not just employees but in the attempting to take over the resources of a heretofore independent parish (150 years in existence) because they have loads of resources and the archdiocese is financially strapped (closing other parishes left and right [doesn't that tell you something about where people are in relation to that religion]).
And they want your obedience even if they do all these things that evoke your disrespect. And many people still give obeisance to them.
posted by
Xeno-x
on January 21, 2005 at 7:37 AM
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Excellent points, Kooka.
One thing I greatly struggle with is the concept of hell. I will no doubt be stoned by many Christians here for saying this, but I simply cannot believe in it. The concept of God punishing someone with hellfire for eternity for "sins" apparently committed during one lifetime does not appear to me as fair or just. No matter how many times a Christian says to me "if we could fully understand God we would fully understand the justice of hell" I simply cannot. It makes me feel physically ill.
I mention this because I see the concept of hell as a bit of a betrayal of the biblical concept of free will. We are given free will, the bible says, yet hell is one, pardon the unintentional pun here, hell of a carrot dangling in front of a donkey to pressure it into being led. To me, the latter is demanding obedience, too, rather than wooing one with grace. Other Christians will say, yes, but we have the choice whether we follow the 'dangling carrot' or not, but really, what kind of choice is that? And is God really gaining respect from that or is he gaining followers that in their hearts fear Him and submit to that obedience because they are scared of hell, not in love with him?
Before anyone else in the comments section nails me for this, let me just say I do realise that of course many love God because they love God, no fear, no 'dangling carrot' coercing them to do so. I raise these points because they are issues I ponder about greatly and I have seen many people throughout my life who do indeed follow God out of fear, not out of love or desire. It saddens me and I ponder all of this much.
Thank you again, Kooka, for writing a post that makes us think about why we believe what we believe.
posted by
Moohahaha
on January 21, 2005 at 12:02 AM
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By the way, Im not dodging the good points that you have raised
or running from a debate. I just feel that whenever someone really brings up an excellent point to me, unless the debate is already progressed and heated up, I will end it up front and channel my thoughts in my own blog. I usually dont do this and just debate it out unless I figure I have a potential really good post brewing. If you want, you of course may check out the post and we can pick it up later.
In the meantime I read your blogs regularly.
posted by
calmcantey75
on January 20, 2005 at 9:23 PM
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Kooka
thanks for the conversation. I think I am going to leave it now, and write a post on the topic that you have raised in my thinking in regards of the old and new testament version of God. Its complicated, but Ill try to tackle it. May take a few posts.
Have you searched Ebay for a deal on a laptop yet? Maybe you cant get away with bringing one to work, but it would be good if you could cause it sounds like you get pretty bored. A job is a job but believe me, I know how it can be.
posted by
calmcantey75
on January 20, 2005 at 9:08 PM
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Jackie
You also have to look at the 'fear not' idea as being very much new testament. The God of the old testament is very much into creating fear. The God that Jesus claims to follow is far from being the God of the Old Testament. This once more points to just how much God was changed to fit the times and helps show that God is changed as needed. By trying to believe in both the old and new testaments at the same time you get the contradiction and confusion that causes many of these kinds of issues. There are clearly two different Gods in the Bible that are being taught as being the same God.
posted by
kooka_lives
on January 20, 2005 at 7:46 PM
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You are right about the fact that
there needs to be demonstrations that God is real and He is worthy of respect. I dont think God really expects people to believe in Him just because Christians say so( although some still do). I wrote a post about that a while back. Jesus instructed His followers to carry out the miracles as He did. That way the world will see the Love, mercy and compassion in action. God is willing to do that through His people by His Spirit.
I brought up the " fearnot" command to show you that it is not Gods intention that we be frightened of Him. The whole purpose of Jesus Christ was to demonstrate the love and mercy of God. Not frighten people or bully them into obeying God.
Thats is what Christians are the Church are supposed to do. Continue the ministry of Christ.
posted by
calmcantey75
on January 20, 2005 at 7:10 PM
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jackie
So what has God done to earn our respect? Just telling us that he is God is not enough. The Biblical idea of God is not asking for respect but demanding obediance. I do believe there are concepts of God that would work better for the resepct aspect, but the God of the Bible is not one of them.
The 'fear not' thing does not really work either since that would be just like a rapist trying to tell the victim that she needs not be upset because he loves her as he is violating her. The person commiting the act often tries to make it sound like he is doing nothing wrong by saying things like 'fear not'.
posted by
kooka_lives
on January 20, 2005 at 5:45 PM
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God does not force anyone to respect or obey Him
bhut respect and obediance is due Him by virtue that He truly is God. God does not employ fear. The phrase " fear not" appears in the Bible 331 times.
It is the errors and folly of the Church over the centuries that has employed fear, instead of, like you pointed out, following the core tenants of Christianity. This is unfortunate, because many have been estranged and embittered by this folly and error. And now they cannot, in that condition, see God
posted by
calmcantey75
on January 20, 2005 at 5:16 PM
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How true
Spent years having everyone trying to "scare me" into being a Catholic. I know where you are coming from.
posted by
David1Spirit
on January 20, 2005 at 4:30 PM
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