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Janes
I debate your comments and show you were you have made mistakes. I do not name call or insult. I state facts. I am honest and I show integrity. If I make a claim I use facts to back up that claim, other wise I very much make it clear that such a thing is my opinion. If anyone proves me to be wrong, which I think has happened once or twice here, I have very openly admitted to having made a mistake and not gotten emotional about possibly being wrong. I can not help it is the Christians who I give out challenges to are unable to provide the facts to back up their claims. I do nor defend idea that are proven to be false. I do not attempt to discredit someone to try and get them to look bad when I am unable to defend my claims. I do not play such childish games. I generally try to get straight to the point instead of dancing around the topic without really saying anything.
That is how one shows respect.
I have put the challenge to you to provide proof that goes against my proof about the propaganda and lies that are being spread by a portion of the Christians community (Some of which you yourself have fallen for and have tried to spread). Yet all you do is claim I am wrong without proving proof, when I have already provide my proof that I am right. If you were to put such a challenge to me about my claims I would not just tell you you were wrong, but instead point out what facts I use to back up my claim. I would not call you names or try to discredit you or push the subject off topic to try and hide it if I could not defend my ideas.
That is how I show you much more respect than you show me.
posted by
kooka_lives
on January 19, 2005 at 5:38 PM
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It's ironic
that you speak of respect, Kooka, because I don't think you've shown the least amount of respect to any of the Bible believing Christians on Blogit -- at least to those of us who verbalize strong opinions about our faith. You have shot down our comments at every twist and turn, and made so many statements clearly lacking in respect. It's obvious we are communicating on completely different wave lengths.
posted by
JanesOpinion
on January 18, 2005 at 8:04 PM
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Janes
I have very clearly never lumped all Christians together. You wish to view it that way because it really is the only way you can make it so that I am being closed minded. This has been a very common tactic with some of the Christians here who can not defend what they claim but instead feel they need to discredit me in order to make it look as though I know not of what I say. I said there were groups of Christians who follow and produce and spread misinformation, propaganda and lies, but I never claimed all Christians do that. I may have said Christians do such things, but I never stated all or most, just Christians. That would be like saying people like to fly and assuming that you are talking about all people. You obviously wish to make what I say to be an attack on all Christians, yet it has been fairly obvious to me that those Christians who know not ot follow the propaganda and BS understand perfectly what I am saying. On the other hand those who are so trapped in their blindness about Christianity as they have been told to follow it, are the real ones who want to lump all of them together so that they can say I am attacking all of the faith when I am really just pointing out the weak points that. It is a very sad tactic to try and discredit me.
Even though you clearly have no real idea of what respect is, I shall still show it to you and never lei to you nor shall I ever act childish towards you. I shall keep on stating facts and point out to you when you have very much gotten trapped in the Christians propaganda that is out there. The most respectful thing I can do is to be honest and not sink to your level, so I shall keep on doing that. I am truly sorry if facts and truth upset you so much. I will not start lying just because it might make you feel better.
posted by
kooka_lives
on January 18, 2005 at 3:45 PM
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Geez Kooka
You talking about showing respect for others and showing growth and whatever else is like the pot calling the kettle black. And now all of a sudden you're talking about my type of Christians vs other Christians when for so many blogs and comments you've been lumping all Christians and Christianity together as being a bunch of lies, misinformation and propaganda. So now you're acknowledging that there are actually some good Christians? That's a news flash!
You bring out the worst in me, Kooka, and make me feel totally psychotic at times. The Bible says that people will know a person is a Christian by the love he or she shows for others. In all honesty, all I feel when I read your statements is anger and annoyance. To actually love is an act that requires extreme grace. Trust me, I'm not there yet. Not with you anyway. Not by a long shot. You call Christians egotistical, but have no idea the one big ARROGANT EGO that makes up YOU.
posted by
JanesOpinion
on January 17, 2005 at 8:42 PM
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Janes
You rest your case without providing any proof. You very much fit into the body of Christians that are the true problem with the faith. I am very glad you are not the example for a Christian, but you and those like you are the ones who are the true problem and are the ones who make the faith look as bad as it does. Once you and others like you can get over your egos and your self imposed blindness and learn to truly grow and show respect for others, then much of what you claim about your beliefs might have some merit to it.
posted by
kooka_lives
on January 17, 2005 at 7:16 PM
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Kooka,
I rest my case. You are as closed minded as I thought. Same ____, different day.
posted by
JanesOpinion
on January 17, 2005 at 6:11 PM
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Janes
I read PastorB's comments. Did you read the one where she tries to make various claims about myself with no facts to back them up? She said "One could clearly say that Kooka himself has been told what to think, merely due to his upbringing." And yet she knows nothing about what she talks but has instead made some very wrogn assumptions. I was pointing out to her just how wrong she is and she tried to turn that around and play her victim card as she so often does.
I have said that not all Christians are guilty of the propaganda issue, but I know for a fact PastorB is very much guilty of passing along the misinformation, propaganda and lies that certian aspects of teh Chrtsitians world create. You yourself are very much guilty of the same thing and both of you have a very bad habit of defending those lies even after actural proof is provided that says they are lies. I have read more than enough of her posts and comments to know that she does pratically none of her own thinking. I care not what she claims to have done in her past, it is her words and atttiude in the here and now that I am looking at when I say the things I say.
You have already proven yourself to be a product of the chruch. You have very openly stated things to be fact that have had the ONLY source of such ideas being Christian propaganda. Every issue I mentioned several posts ago about the Christian Propaganda and lies I have proved to be lies. You are the one trying to claim otherwise, yet have provided no proof to defend your side of things.
Just the simple fact that you are defending PastorB and what I have already proven to be lies, only helps to show that you are of the mind that says 'Anything Chrsitian is going to be right'. I have already pointed out way too often that I have no issue with Chrisitans in genral. In fact there are many Chrsitians here who have said they agree with a lot of what I say becuase they see the same problems with many of the faith and would like to see changes made. I have even been told by some that they feel PastorB is not a good example of a true Christian. I would love to know of just one thing you have ever disagreed with that your church has said.
And just for the record, I have no idea what you think has happened between PastorB and myself, but she if the one who came in and started calling me names and insutling me at every turn once I started to speak my mind here. I tried to be very polite to her at first, but soon I saw that there was no point at all to that. I still treat her with a much greater level of respect than she treats me. ( I just realized that I can say all the same about you. I started off being very polite to you and you were the one to start insutling me and trying to discredit me as much as possible and I do treat you with much more respect than you treat me) But of course due to your blindness you will side with her since she is as much trapped by the propaganda of her beliefs as you are and I am just an athiest who knows nothing but intolerance towards anyone's beliefs. Kind of strange then that I am not the one who makes the genralizations that you are other Chrsitians (such as PastorB) do.
posted by
kooka_lives
on January 17, 2005 at 5:44 PM
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Huh?
Excuse me, but who is insulting whom? Kooka, did you even READ Pastor B's comments? You automatically assume that because she is a devout Christian, her views are "lies, propaganda and misinformation." She talked about how she studied many different religions, had a very open mind, and came to Christ through a long search for truth. Where is the lack of respect in that openness and honesty? No wonder she has become testy with you when all you do is foam at the mouth and shoot down her statements with your own belittling comments. As long as the person is a Bible believing Christian, it would seem that you have it in for them with your across the board accusations of "lies, misinformation and propaganda" or some variation on that theme. You're not nearly as open minded as you think you are. In fact, it would seem that you are very closed minded -- to anything a Christian might have to say. All I've seen are the same old vitriolic generalizations against Christians spewed forth from your blogs. Hey, didn't you write a blog about the dangers of making generalizations? That must apply to everyone and every topic except you and your writings.
And speaking of being closed minded, I'm trying to figure out why I still (occasionally) read your blogs. I generally read a lot of blogs, many of which I don't agree with, but I do it because I AM OPEN MINDED and like to read a variety of differing opinions. Don't think I can say the same for you. All I've seen over the past few months is closed minded arrogance from you -- and yes, I'd go so far to say arrogant hypocrisy.
In response to what I've written, you will once again write about how you've somehow PROVEN all things Christian to be a bunch of "lies, misinformation and propaganda." You haven't PROVEN anything to me, Kooka, except that your mind seems closed to any opinions that do not jive with your own.
And regarding your post, trust me. I'm a Christian who definitely doesn't agree with everything I hear in church. But I'm guessing you won't believe me, will you? Because your mind is already made up about all the "lies, misinformation and propaganda" you accuse Christians of blindly following in your sweeping (but OF COURSE NOT generalistic) statements against Christians. Come to think of it, all this is kind of like a soap opera. I can take a week or two away from your blog, and when I come back I can pick up on your blogs and not have missed out on any thing -- because it's the same old tiresome drivel against Christians. Thanks, Kooka, for being so predictable!
posted by
JanesOpinion
on January 17, 2005 at 9:34 AM
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PastorB
Stop trying to pretend you wish to have a conversation with me. You know full well that you try to discredit me and insult me at every turn and then try to make yourself look to be the victim. I can not help it if I am honest with you and you take that the wrong way. I know respect and I have tried to show it to you on many occasion and all you have done is spit back in my face. I have learned my lesson and so I will still show you much more respect than you show me, but I will no longer try to be nice in doing so.
But by your own words you point out time and time again that your beliefs are exactly what is the generic set of beliefs. You have made way too many comments that are not Biblical at all, but are part of the very inaccurate and idiotic Christian propaganda that is out there. The only source of many of what you claim to be facts is the Christian propaganda. If you did resource on things outside of what is being told to you, you would find that great deal of what you believe to be very much proven (This are proven facts mind you) to be false. I am not talking about the Biblical aspect, which some of how you see things Biblically are not the way the Bible actually reads, but I am not going into that. it is the beliefs outside of the core religious ideas that truly show you to be one who does not think for themselves. You show that a major source of information for you is not proven fact, but rather what is handed too you by the Church and religious groups wishing to push they ideas. Most of your information comes from the simple source of Christian propaganda, since many of what you claim to be facts only are stated as facts in Christian propaganda. In the real world much of that has been absolutely proven to be wrong.
So your claims to being a 'rebel' make little sense if all you do if listen to what you are told and believe what they wish you to believe. You are far, far from being a free thinker, no matter what you may wish to believe.
posted by
kooka_lives
on January 16, 2005 at 2:55 PM
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Kooka, why is it that you can't ever have a conversation
without peppering it with saracasm with me? It's too bad you can't take a lesson from Westwend. He at least is open to discussion without feeling the need to "get his digs in". Maybe it's a respect issue? You clearly don't know what kind of home I was raised in or what kind of "religious" upbringing I had. But for the record; the only thing my mother and step father did "religiously" were drink and abuse. My "religious" education was one I pursued for myself, researching many forms of religion and experiencing many first hand. I wasn't taught faith, I caught faith. I am too stubborn and strong willed to do anything simply because a mere mortal told me to. If anything, I rebeled against those who said "you must do it this way" or "you must believe this way" and I'd forge ahead usually in the opposite direction of what they would have me go. Even in my formal "religious education" when I was getting ordained, I didn't adhere to the doctrine of that denomination and they had serious doubts about even ordaining me because I was too radical for them, but none the less because of the fact that I had accomplished what their prescribed goals for obtaining my ordination were, they had to concede and ordain me. Which made little difference, because I didn't need a mans approval, as God is the one who calls and ordains. My "official" ordination was just a formality.
posted by
PastorB
on January 16, 2005 at 6:55 AM
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PastorB
I can very honestly say that I was never told what to think at any part of my upbringing. The house I spent most of my childhood in really had very little religion in it. My mother has a belief in God, which I and my step-father do not share. But her belief was not one she pushed at any time. My father, empty handed painter aka Westwend (I am going to just call him EHP though, gotta find out what the deal is with the new nick name) who is more religious in general was not part of the household I was raised in. In fact I was worried about talking religion with him after I formed my views because I knew he had a belief and was very unsure as to how he would handle the idea of me being an atheist. We did not start talking religion at all until I was an adult.
I know you would love to think that everyone has been told how to think just as you obviously were, but in my case I can very honestly say that I figured out my basic views on my own. It was only after I learned my own personal views that I started to learn that my step-father himself shared them and that EHP's views were not as fundamental as I thought they might be.
I have before talked about how coming out as an atheist has to be much like coming out as being homosexual. (I think this is one of the reason I have respect for those who are openly homosexual and why I defend them. I do feel I have some idea of how hard it was for them to come out and be honest about who they are. In general the American population is not very kind to atheist.) I was very much afraid of what those around me would think since I knew that my beliefs were not what the majority believes in. I seriously thought that I would have many who would be upset with me and would be trying to force me to 'Find God', which could lead to unwanted confrontations with family members. I have been very lucky in that most of my family and friends were not the blind idiotic fundamental types who are the true problem with Christianity. I can really only think of a very few who tried to convert me and they have backed down and accepted me for who I am.
Cone more your views are obviously very much formed by the propaganda that is spread by certain Christians groups.
posted by
kooka_lives
on January 15, 2005 at 3:46 PM
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Westwend, as a social worker who has dealt with child abuse
and also one who has survived child abuse, I must point out that you are again generalizing. Not all children in an abusive home want to be put back into it. The thing is that a great deal of children in those environments are suffering from a fear of abandonment, the "love" they receive is often conditional and based on their performance or lack there of.
True, a person can become conditioned by their environment and what they see, hear and experience in childhood and undoubtedly throughout life. I've known several people who grew up in an abusive home and have made it their goal not to repeat that cycle. I've also known people who grew up in "relgious" homes who have made it their goal to turn completely away from any form of "religion" and it's teachings. One could clearly say that Kooka himself has been told what to think, merely due to his upbringing. But when a child reaches a certain age, they begin to make judgements and decisions for themselves.
posted by
PastorB
on January 15, 2005 at 7:55 AM
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I h ave noticed and experienced
mature adults who have gon their entire lives living what they have been taught as children -- certain Christian denominational doctrines -- and they will tell you that they haven't been told what to believe by anyone else.
What we learn and experience as children, we take as normal and it becomes the largest part of what we are as adults.
Examples of this in everyday living are the children who grow up in abusive households. If you try to take them out of that household, they will cry and scream and not want out -- they want back to their mommy and daddy, who they say loves them and whom they still love in spite of the abuse -- they are used to this and it is a normal thing to them. Ask any child abuse social worker.
That may be an extreme -- but it shows that children in particular can accept anything they grow up with as the norm.
Then when they become adults, they cannot accept differently, nor can they think differently than they have become conditioned to thinking as a child. Their adult decisions then revolve around this.
posted by
Xeno-x
on January 15, 2005 at 7:42 AM
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Kooka
Sometimes it is difficult for people to understand the guidance of God because God guides in subtle ways, by feeding ideas into our minds, speaking through a nagging sensation of dissatisfaction, inspiring us to choose better than we otherwise would, and bringing to the surface hidden dangers of temptation.
posted by
telemachus
on January 14, 2005 at 12:09 PM
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gomedome, that wasn't completely descriptive of what
the candiru (vandellia cirrhosa) does.
posted by
PastorB
on January 14, 2005 at 7:48 AM
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to quote Johnny Carson, PastorB
May the bird of paradise . . .
then Jimmy Dickens sang about it.
posted by
Xeno-x
on January 14, 2005 at 7:15 AM
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Kooka -- the vandellia cirrhosa
is a type of fish that acts much like a leach. Commonly referred to as the vampire fish. luvly.
posted by
gomedome
on January 13, 2005 at 10:49 PM
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O.K., how's this for original?.......
May you take a trip to South America and be visited by a vandellia cirrhosa and two of his closest friends.
posted by
PastorB
on January 13, 2005 at 12:09 PM
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in order to progress
beyond what is blindly accepted.
1. Erase personal History.
2. Lose self-importance.
3. Assume responsibility.
4. Use Death as an advisor.
Don Juan Matus, as related to Carlos Castaneda.
posted by
Xeno-x
on January 13, 2005 at 9:28 AM
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Kelli
I think I understand, just not postive. You got a little confusing there.
posted by
kooka_lives
on January 13, 2005 at 8:47 AM
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kooka,
no disagreeing with something you do not understand now! lol.
posted by
Kelli
on January 12, 2005 at 8:35 PM
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Kelli
I believe that was a run-on sentance there.
PastorB will have to make you stand in a corner now.
I think I agree with what you said, although I am not completley sure as to what you said.
posted by
kooka_lives
on January 12, 2005 at 8:29 PM
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I think what I wanna think when I wanna think it how I wanna think it and I think we all should think the same and accept the thinking of others as a thought not made by our own mind therefore opening our own minds to new possibilities instead of closing our minds to assumed wrongs.
posted by
Kelli
on January 12, 2005 at 8:24 PM
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PastorB
You are right, not very original at all. I have heard that one many times. And other much more colorful and interesting variations as well.
posted by
kooka_lives
on January 12, 2005 at 8:23 PM
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umm, lets see, something original eh? O.K., how 'bout this. ..... SUCK
MY BIG TOE! nah, that's not very original either...I'll have to get back to you on that one.
posted by
PastorB
on January 12, 2005 at 8:19 PM
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jackie
The opening your mind and be willing to learn I have no problems with. I agree and I am very glad you used Yoda's words here, because that is part of what needs to be done by many. Many will not unlearn the mistakes they have learned, and I am not even talking about anything biblical here. This goes into the ideas of that are obviously created in the church itself that you will find no reference to in the Bible. Just look back a few post to my Propaganda post to see some great examples of this.
Part of being truly spiritual is to know what information really is coming from whatever it is you put your faith in and what information is coming from those in power in the church for the purposes of control. This who believe in the propaganda, misinformation and leis are the ones who I am referring to. If you just believe in God and have beliefs based on how you see the teaching of the Bible and not how others have told you to see the teachings of the Bible then you do not fall into category.
posted by
kooka_lives
on January 12, 2005 at 8:19 PM
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PastorB
I have yet to see you ever say anything original myself. You believe everything that is told to you by any Christian source out there. Much of what you claim to believe has nothing at all to do with anything that comes from the Bible but instead it comes from the Christian propaganda, misinformation and lies that are out there. That is something which you have made very clear time and time again. Stop lying to us and stop lying to yourself. You really are one of the best examples of what this post is about.
Sorry if I do not have time to edit myself here. I am using a word processor at work which tries to correct spelling errors instantly and I get the feeling it often picks the wrong words for me. But I have many other things going on right now and can not put much time into editing my posts for blogit. Having a real life gets in the way of doing such things.
Sorry but this idiotic attempted to discredit me over a trivial thing will work no better than all you past attempts at the same.
posted by
kooka_lives
on January 12, 2005 at 8:12 PM
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but it is too bad Kooka that someone doesn't tell you how
to spell. Kind of detracts from any level of intelligence you are trying to display. Maybe you could look up a dictionary in all your searches for the "facts".
posted by
PastorB
on January 12, 2005 at 7:11 PM
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Of course, I am being told what to think...
what to buy, who to vote for, what to worry about, what to cheer for, how to behave... 
Ask my parents: do I listen? They'll tell you... 
posted by
Ciel
on January 12, 2005 at 5:02 PM
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who tells you what to think Kooka?
No, I personally am not being told what to think. Who would tell me? Surely people on blogit try, but do I listen? Would the church tell me what to think? No, that's impossible, I don't go. I'm too stubborn to listen to what some mere human tells me, so I guess the only one left to tell me is the Holy Spirit-now THERE'S a concept!
posted by
PastorB
on January 12, 2005 at 4:00 PM
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I dont think, at least in my experience,
we are told what to think, as in we are to suspend our brains. The scripture does ask that we humble ourselves as little children and to be meek, which means pliable or " teachable". How else will we learn the teachings of Jesus?
Sometimes you must "unlearn what you have learned" if you are to understand true Christianity. That goes for some Christians as well.
posted by
calmcantey75
on January 12, 2005 at 3:40 PM
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people believe
in what is not real.
and vehemently at that -- vociferously, and a whole lot.
I keep being reminded of the Catholic lady who sat beside me at a dinner and talked about going to this country near Greece to see a miracle along with a crowd of other people -- I think it was supposed to be a cross or something that was supposed to move. She swore up and down that she saw the miracle -- it was real to her.
And I am as certain that it was a mass hallucination as she was that it was real, whatever it was.
it's amazing how many people "see" similar things.
posted by
Xeno-x
on January 12, 2005 at 3:07 PM
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