Comments on A SIMPLE PLAN TO ENDS ABORTIONS

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I will be sorry for this one,

but--to really get rid of unwanted pregnancy and the ensuing misery, mandate that all male children born are promptly, within 8 days, given a vasectomy, small incision, tiny snip and a few days to heal, is all it takes. 

When the man is willing and able to take responsibility for another human being's life, for the rest of his life, then he can have it reversed.

FR

posted by freerain on December 14, 2004 at 12:23 AM | link to this | reply

talki about goin off the deep end

you should see the stuff  she was saying over on tom copoleys 'angry political blog'

posted by calmcantey75 on December 9, 2004 at 5:31 PM | link to this | reply

homegirl

Well I guess thank you. Y-L-F has always seemed a bit off to me, but suddenly it seems she has gone off the deep end.  I think your adivce for her to back off from blogit a bit and get her head together is good one.  It seems she does have something she needs to work out.

I already knew due to your past comments about sex, that you would disgree with my ideas here.

posted by kooka_lives on December 9, 2004 at 5:23 PM | link to this | reply

never ever thought I'd take kookas side

since he is wrong about the more sex education thing... but... fabulous.... COME ON!!!! You need a blogit break! get off the man's back.. he is not responsible for your past.

posted by homegirl on December 9, 2004 at 4:20 PM | link to this | reply

Y-L-F

That is just sad

posted by kooka_lives on December 9, 2004 at 1:49 PM | link to this | reply

I love my husband very much. He married me. That's the only form of

respect I can recognize from the men in this world.

posted by TARZANA on December 9, 2004 at 1:43 PM | link to this | reply

Y-L-F

I am not going to go and counter with my perosnal experainces on this one, it would take too long to go into details of all of the events that I know of that go very much against what you are saying.  Both my wife and my mother and many, many other women I have known in my life have had problems with men due to the teachings that you are right not trying to say I should follow.  I have personally known people who's lives have been ruined due to their families following these outdated ideas that you are trying to promote.  It sounds like events happened in your life by men who were NOT ACTING RESPONSIBLY. It has nothing to do with how one views the acceptance of sex, but how one views the idea of responsiblity and acting in such a manner.

I cannot help it that you hate men and hate sex.  Those are issues you need to work out however.  But I am going to teach my boys to be responsible for their actions and through that teaching they will never force themselves on a girl, that is not being responsible. 

By your logic then I can blame all women for what that one girl did to me when I was child. Which would then mean that you are now a child molestor. And so all women owe me for the actions of one girl.  Sorry, but I know better than to go and take one event or a series of events and use that as the foundation for my all my views on that subject.

posted by kooka_lives on December 9, 2004 at 1:33 PM | link to this | reply

kooka,

Actually, an honest demonstration of one's true feelings on the subject can only ruin any friendship, therefore, you may only hear it from a stranger.  I continue to maintain an attitude of forgiveness toward any man in my life that I must maintain personal contact with for any reason, because living in a war zone can destroy a person. 

And although I never was a fighter, kooka, my entire family (of my youth) was destroyed subtly and systematically by these attitudes, so that I am able to see only after my slow death that I was murdered.  I loved my family very much, and the losses were great, heavy, permanently damaging, and did involve a number of deaths.  Seven deaths and numerous permanent losses of family members, to be exact.  You f**kers are a sneaky bunch.  I can only attempt to spare my daughters the same fate at this point.  I should hope that an intelligent father would listen to a real victim of society's abuses of women.

posted by TARZANA on December 9, 2004 at 10:01 AM | link to this | reply

Y-L-F

My wife and I had a sexual relationship before we got married and I know I never pushed her into it. I actually know of more men who have had the woman be the aggressor, than of men who have been aggressive towards the women.

It is very much obvious to me that you have issues here. You views on this are very much out of focus. I see no point in continuing this with you. You obviously ar not listening to what I am saying. I have yet to see you show me as to how being teaching children to be responsible about their actions will lead to rape or any other such irresponsible actions.

Your opinion that any premarital sex has to be forced on the woman by the man is very false and inaccurate. I have never seen anything to support such thinking. I am guessing this is fully your our experiences and no one else's, while I can talk from the point of knowing of my friends and how they became sexually active as well as my personal experiences.

posted by kooka_lives on December 9, 2004 at 9:49 AM | link to this | reply

ANY sex outside of permanent marriage is PUSHING in my book.  Why don't you get the clear message? 

posted by TARZANA on December 9, 2004 at 9:30 AM | link to this | reply

Y-L-F

My ideas would actually be beneficial to womankind.

I have very clearly pointed out the ideas of be responsible. Once more, pushing someone into having sex IS NOT responsible. I have no clue as to where you are getting this from. IT NEEDS TO BE CONSENSUAL.

Everything you have said goes very much against the ideas I have presented here. Get over your hatred of men and read what I am saying.

posted by kooka_lives on December 9, 2004 at 9:03 AM | link to this | reply

actually, yes.

posted by calmcantey75 on December 9, 2004 at 8:59 AM | link to this | reply

Blah, blah, blah ...

Yes, I'm sure you would prefer that I remain silent.

posted by TARZANA on December 9, 2004 at 8:54 AM | link to this | reply

YLF

you cannot injure me. I know hell hath no fury but you are only hurting and hindering yourself with this bitterness.

posted by calmcantey75 on December 9, 2004 at 8:51 AM | link to this | reply

jackie o,

You're a man.  Of course you support all subtle forms of rape.

posted by TARZANA on December 9, 2004 at 8:46 AM | link to this | reply

YLF

excuse me but have been reading these exchanges here and I have to say that the guy is NOT advocating rape or pushing girls into sex. How can you so completely and thouroughly twist what he is saying into your embittered, fixed perception. I butt in like this because you do the same things in my posts and it is offensive and silly because I have a feeling you know better by virtue of intelligence.

posted by calmcantey75 on December 9, 2004 at 8:44 AM | link to this | reply

OINK

posted by TARZANA on December 9, 2004 at 8:33 AM | link to this | reply

kooka,

I can see that you are doing your best to defend yourself, as you ignore my pleas for change because of the vast destruction that has been inflicted on womankind, myself included, by the attitude that sex outside of loving commitment is not harmful to a woman.  You would prefer to teach your sons that it's OK to push the girl into sex, after you've employed all of male society to support your position, murder her children if they are untimely, and dump her if she doesn't prove to be a good whore for you before you commit to love. 

posted by TARZANA on December 9, 2004 at 8:32 AM | link to this | reply

Y-L-A

I am not promoting rape in any way shape or form. Rape is very clearly an irresponsible behavior and would go fully against what I am saying here. I firmly believe that any sex should be fully consensual. I have no idea where you have gotten the idea that I am promoting rape. I am saying that people need to be educated and taught that they can make up their own minds about their actions and should be taught to act responsible. The idea of rape does not figure into that one bit.

I will fully hold my boys accountable for their actions and they will know better than to force a women to do anything that she does not wish to do. It is part of teaching them to be responsible for their actions.

"that all men pay the price for their crimes against all women" Obviously you are a man hater and have had some issues with men it would seem. From what I have seen more of those problems have come from a misteaching of sexual ideas. Of course I could go into the simple fact here that the only time in my life that I was ever sexual abused was by a female baby-sitter when I was very young. I remember very little of it (I must have been three or four at the time, I have a real good memory), but I know it happened and I know I did not let it affect me in my life. Having talked with my mother very openly about it, she had some interesting bits to add to it all, but in the end some issues of it were more or less discarded because it was the kind of thing that was better left untalked about. In that respect I was raped by a women at a very young age. That girl was responsible for taking care of me and instead did not do the responsible thing. Luckily if that event has affected me, it wa not in any way that has left me emotional scared or such. I accept that as being something that happened and I guess I am glad I was young enough that I do not remember all of it. Also, the actions of one woman has not made me believe that such is the way of all women and so I do not see all women as being child molesters.

Rape is not acting responsible, clear and simple. So there can be no promoting of rape in any way shape or form when talking about people being responsible for their actions.

posted by kooka_lives on December 9, 2004 at 8:17 AM | link to this | reply

jethro

I think you have one thing backwards, as long as our society is be limiting itself in its horizons abortion has to be a tolerated aspect of our nation. Once we get beyond certain ideas, we should grow as a people at which stage people in general will be more responsible for their actions and at that point there will be no need to make any laws against abortion because there will be less of a need for them.

I will agree with what you have said about men. But the men who force themselves on women are not be responsible to begin with and so right there that is against the basic idea. Right there is also part of the problem that comes from our attitudes about sex that does not deal with responsibility. The Christian values are much more concerned with the woman virgin above the man virgin. It is the girls who are taught to be careful of those bad boys who only want one thing, while the boys generally are taught nothing and so have to figure it out and then sex becomes a way to prove one's manliness.

I do not think our present attitudes are part of any moral decay. I honestly see the acceptance of sex as being part of a social growth. I am not saying that people need to start sleeping around like crazy or such, but that we need to be honest about the ideas of sex and see that people are going to want to have sex before they are in a committed relationship. There is nothing at all that can be done to stop and reverse this tend. Now is has come from a lost of innocence that we as a culture had about forty yeas ago. Vietnam and Kennedy's death and other acts of that time created a realization in people that we were not being honest so instead of denying facts, we started to accept them and look for ways to make them work. We were no longer hiding sexual abuse as such that was happening back then, it is just no one talked about it or admitted that it could happen in their family. Same with date rape and other such acts that we really can not tell just how bad they were back then because they just were not reported. Now we are saying those things happen and are admitting that teenagers want to be sexual and that causal sex is something that some people choose to take part in, that there is drug use and so much else. America was never really the perfect 'Leave it to Beaver' world. It was just that we turned a blind eye to all that was happening and tried to pretend that nothing of 'low morals' was taking place.

Your family shame idea does not really work though. Those families who could not hide the events of course felt shame (Mostly because of the closed minded ideas of the time and the denial surrounding them). We really do not know how many pregnancies were taking place. Dangerous back ally abortions were being performed as well as disowning the pregnant girl who would loose all hope of a future and have to look towards prostitution or some other such wy to get by. There were issues of sexual abuse by parents that just got ignored and such because the family was not going to admit to anything because they did not wish to be shamed. I honestly believe that people in general were just as sexual active (Maybe not in quantity, but in participation) but were hiding it and denying it and being able to cover up any mistakes that were made. America was allowing itself to be much blinder to things at that time. You also did not mention at just how young of an age people were getting married. Generally if you were female and not married off by the time you were twenty or so, you were looked own on. Women could only really define themselves by their husbands and at some level were not allowed ot be an independent person. I can still see a fair amount of evidence of that when looking at my grandparent's generation.

My wife and I were very sexually active with each other for years before we got married. We were responsible about it. I honestly think if we would have waited until we got married there would have been some serious issues due to her pat experiences. Her problems with sex came because she had been taught nothing at all about her body and about sex and such, but instead was told that is was just a bad thing to have sex before you got married. She had been sexual active before me and she got nothing out of sex and figured it was a way to make guys like her. I do not worry about her past because she is with me now and we have been together for over eight years now. If we would not have been sexually active before we got married, all of her issues regarding sex would have come out then and it would have started the marriage off in a really rough way. By being sexually active and learning just how little she knew about her body and sex in general I was able to work through her problems and get her to enjoy sex at a time where it would not have been harmful to our relationship for us to have parted ways if we found ourselves unable to work it out. I would much rather have broken up with her back then is she could not get over those issue, than wait until after we got married and had those issue be there and be unsolvable because there would have been extra years of her not working them out and feeling more shameful of herself and her body and her desires and so on. For me and my wife premarital sex was a great thing for our relationship, and without it most likely we would have had some serious issues that could have ruined a marriage.

But of course that is living, breathing proof to help back up my ideas. I really can only look at what I know and what I see to try to figure out what is best. Looking back at history we can see some very clear patterns that are very much over looked in favor of what many claim to be 'moral values'.

Also, go and read tomcompley's comment to see some of the facts that help to prove my point.

posted by kooka_lives on December 9, 2004 at 8:00 AM | link to this | reply

kooka,

Regarding tomcopley's remarks, I must agree that to expect a young, impressionable girl to remain a virgin in the midst of a virtual whore house (what with the things they allow in the media), is a difficult request to make of her.  However, if we educate our children that such people are simply beneath us, we have a greater chance of keeping them safe from the clear and present danger.

Furthermore, I have clearly informed you that such behavior as you promote is the same thing to me as rape.  In clarifying my postition, I shall now state more clearly,

RAPE!!!

Can you hear me now?  And in light of my complaint, are you going to continue to defend such behavior, because if you are, I shall require that your sons pay the price for their crime against our daughters and that all men pay the price for their crimes against all women. 

posted by TARZANA on December 9, 2004 at 7:43 AM | link to this | reply

A Few Thoughts

I have to say I'm shocked to find that there is one thing that Kooka and I agree upon and that is that abortion is absolutely wrong. I think our society will always be limited in its horizons so long as abortion remains a tolerated aspect of our nation.

This comes on the interesting occasion of my having attended a meeting with Alan Keyes last night. His words on abortion were the most powerful I have ever heard and it is such a shame that the media painted him as they did while basically ordaining his opponent without examination. I think I might turn that experience into a whole post.

For the moment though I would like to offer a few brief disagreements.
Firstly I think we are all lying to ourselves when we feel the need to say that men and women bear equal responsibility when it comes to sex. There are undoubtedly situations where women are forced into sex and those cases are tragic. However, the vast majority of sexual encounters are consensual. As a man who also knows hundreds of men I will say that when sex is involved a majority of men will unfortunately compromise their morals as well as any common sense they may have. Trusting 50% of the responsibility with men in such a situation is a recipe for disaster. Just because something sounds fair doesn't make it logical.

Observing everything from fish to Elephants you will find that the females are regularily selective regarding mates while the males are much less so. The same has always been true for the majority of women. Messing with that reality of nature will obviously bring adverse consequences. That we would even be having this conversation is a very recent phenomenon brought on by a cultural decay. The doctrine of fairness has surely spilled over into dangerous territory. Men and women compliment each other in many ways and this is one instance where society must count on women to be the voice of reason.

While I think we need to count more on women for those moments when it gets down to just the two of them, society also bears much responsibility for backing up that woman's choice not to have sex. Right now society is not holding up their end and the whole thing is slipping. Sixty or Seventy years ago there were a few things intact that would dissuade pre-marital sex very effectively. Firstly family shame was still fully in effect. A young girl who got pregnant would be ashamed to look at her parents much less her grandparents. Virtually everybody around them would be in grave disapproval. Call it ancient, unfair, whatever you like. Bottom line is that it worked very well. Most of our grandparents were each others' firsts. There was also a role for the men in the family to play. A young man could not just get a girl pregnant and ignore her. Those men would have to deal with those girls' fathers, brothers, uncles, cousins, the minister, the shopkeeper, etc. all without anybody to back them. Why would nobody back them? Yes, family shame again. While there were undoubtedly occasional problems these things generally worked out rather well this way. The discouraging effects of these realities did much to keep the community running rather smoothly.

Move ahead 60-70 years and moral relativism has infected society successfully neutralizing family shame as a deterrent. A young girl need only turn on the TV(or I guess her computer now) to hear somebody telling them they should be trusted to make their own decisions, that reality is in the eye of the beholder, and that being "liberated" is their highest calling. I have the urge to physically hurt certain people every once in awhile, but I don't do that because I know it isn't right and I also know that it would probably leave me anything but liberated. The same attitude needs to be attached to sex, but the opposite is true.

I also disagree with the contention that children should be taught that sex is natural outside of marriage and that as long as they're safe it's okay. As much as the media would like it to be so sex is hardly ever the same experience for the boy as the girl. Looking back on my misadventures I can see more clearly the havoc sex played with girls' emotions and in turn our relationships. These problems can be the catalyst for much more serious problems in the future.

On the other side I also see the subtle havoc promiscuity can play in one's future relationships. Women are likely less inclined to fully trust men who have been with several other women before them. I think this also opens them up to even greater feelings of insecurity which in turn open a whole new can of worms. Then men by nature are very territorial creatures. No matter how much a man cares for a woman I think there will always be a little part inside of him that resents her for having been with another man besides him. I think that this reality may play a far bigger role in the problem of marital stress and domestic abuse than anybody has sufficiently explored.

I will probably go on more about this later, but I've gotta get to bed now.

posted by jethro on December 8, 2004 at 10:38 PM | link to this | reply

Y-L-F

I just looked it up and condoms are generally 97% to 99% effective.
http://www.coolnurse.com/malecondom.htm

I am lost as to what you are talking about in regards to it being the 'light of truth'.

Not to be insulting, but I often get the feeling that you have conversation with yourself about posts and od not share what you say with us here, but instead are replying to something your have said to yourself which ends up taking subjects into very strange places that do not seem to have any connection at all.

posted by kooka_lives on December 8, 2004 at 4:37 PM | link to this | reply

jackie

Those are very accurate and logic comparisons. I know for a fact that I lost just about all of my interest in drinking when I became of legal age. I know for a fact that I got drunk way more times in just the year before I turned 21 than I have in the nine years since then. I am not a drinker and really do not care to be drunk, but it was different when it was something that I was told I was not suppose to be doing. Something about youth just tries to find ways to try the things we ar told w are not allowed to do.

posted by kooka_lives on December 8, 2004 at 4:26 PM | link to this | reply

kooka,

No, it's the pill that's 99% effective, but destructive to the already delicate female emotions.  The condom is only 85% effective, if you use one.  

And are you saying that you didn't read cognizantly all that I just explained to you in the most in your face and obvious light of truth? 

posted by TARZANA on December 8, 2004 at 4:23 PM | link to this | reply

Y-L-F

The simple facts point against you on this. Just look at tomcompley's comment and the facts he has presented. It really is the teaching of abstinence when it is very clear that such teaching is only causing them to be more confused about sex.

I also know many women who have been on birth control pills who are just fine. Those who generally become the most affected by such things are already unstable to being with and it is not the pills themselves which are causing the problem. Also the pills are not only about birth control but also about regulating the body. Many women who have irregular periods are put on birth control to help them level out their hormones. You do not need to be sexually active to be on the pill.

Oh, and condoms are 99% effective, not 85%. Not sure where you got hat number from. I am at a lost as to where you got the idea we were talking about extramarital affairs here though. That would go against the idea of being responsible for your actions.

posted by kooka_lives on December 8, 2004 at 4:05 PM | link to this | reply

kooka,

Also, the woman who has emotional problems, because of the birth control pills she is taking in order to avoid getting pregnant by the guy who is screwing her, has no chance of achieving marriage because of those emotional problems that birth control pills do cause, and after a while, she gets labeled unjustly as an unfit, whore, lowlife, because the guy who is screwing her has ruined her as a "good person" because he has forced her to be emotionally unstable. 

Problems you may not be aware of as a man.  Problems of which even doctors are not aware.

posted by TARZANA on December 8, 2004 at 3:54 PM | link to this | reply

And if you think about it for about one millisecond,

if a man is irresponsible enough to have extramarital sex on an 85% chance of averting complete disaster (not to mention, taking advantage of the woman trusting that he's on his way to marrying her), then he's probably irresponsible enough to forget to use it now and then.

Birth control pills can cause emotional problems for women, but men want them to take that chance so they can screw around?  I oppose all of that B.S.  Abstinance before marriage is the only humane solution to ridding ourselves of abortion.

posted by TARZANA on December 8, 2004 at 3:43 PM | link to this | reply

Matos

This post came from the basic idea of the other post. I could have tried to gone more religious with this one and put it in that category, but the idea it self did not feel religious enough, but more socially based.

You also need to understand that the other post was not focused fully on abortions, but to the idea of death and the Christian idea of Heaven, which leads to some very contradictory ideas with in their practiced beliefs.

posted by kooka_lives on December 8, 2004 at 3:36 PM | link to this | reply

uni

Time and time again you make me so very glad that I do not live in the same world you do.

I said that I would teach my children to be responsibility and that if they feel that certain actions are what they wish to perform they will know to be responsible for those actions. They will know that it is their choice and that when they make such a choice they need to make sure they do all in their power to make sure their actions are not going to have negative consequences. I also have a very strange feeling that when it comes to teaching sex I am going to much more likely to teach my boys all the fats and make sure they understand it all than you teaching sex to your children.

Uni, I do not insult you. You look for insults in everything I say. I honestly know for a fact that I have tried to compliment you and you have taken that as an insult. Most of the time you insult yourself far more than I ever could by your own comments. I am far from acting childish towards you. I am the one who was saying let's leave each other alone and you came out and demanded an apology form me because I speak my mind and have my own beliefs which greatly disagree with yours. I am still very much for us leaving each other alone. If you stop leaving me comments, I will stop replying to those comments since facts are something that upset you so greatly.

Also, a point on that, while you have gone and insulted my family directly by making various comments about my father, I have yet to say anything at all as an insult towards your family. Whenever I try to look through our little 'debates' for lack of a better word, since you really do not debate, I see no insults coming from me outside of mocking you somewhat, while you have constantly tried to cut my down with all kinds of insults and you often resort to the very childish level of trying to discredit me, which is mostly what you are doing here.

I am going to start being the bigger person here and just try to ignore you completely when you act this way and have nothing of real value to say, btu instead not only questioning my parenting skills (Which I have personally been told by other parents are extremely good since my boys are often about the most well behaved, polite and respectful children they see) but also try to discredit me by making it clear you either did not read my post and comment or did not care what I was saying and would rather try purposely misunderstand my words to to try and make your point.

I am very sorry that I try to speak the truth as often as I can. I know you hate proven facts and logic, but that is how I figure things out in life.

posted by kooka_lives on December 8, 2004 at 3:30 PM | link to this | reply

I once belonged to a church that taught abstinence

the young people couldn't practice it though.

some had sex with outsiders -- more than one couple had sex before they were married -- one couple married sooner than they should have -- within the church.

with these examples, abstinence is not a viable teaching.

sex is an inevitable part of the human condition -- that must be understood.

abstinence is next to impossible.  any honest person will admit that -- anyone who has really lived knows that 99% of the people cannot practice abstinence.

and now we have the example of celibacy being next to impossible -- sex is a necessary drive -- coming after air and water and food -- and before clothing and housing as necessities.

posted by Xeno-x on December 8, 2004 at 2:31 PM | link to this | reply

     See Kooka, why couldn't you have written this post instead of the other one? It did bring up better points and examples. A post like this shows that you can make the morally right decision and treat abortion like the serious issue it is. I will state what  Iwrote in Uni's post, If you're going to teach kids about safe sex, you have to give them all their options, abstinence as well. But make sure to give pros and cons about each so they can make a decision right for them.

     I know that my mom told not to have sex before I got married because I would destroy my life and because it went against the bible (Which she like to clobber me with). I had sex anyway, but it helped that I knew enough to get protection.

      

posted by Matos on December 8, 2004 at 12:04 PM | link to this | reply

Kooka

Thanks for the response that their are acceptions to the rule.

As for the condom issue. I never could understand why men feel that way. I have used condoms, and other forms(without condoms) which were a little more risky, I can tell a "slight" difference, maybe just because I am aware there is one. I don't feel it's worth the risk. Most of my protection has been condoms and they have never failed, except under those "exceptions" on the part of the men.  I've would think that if there were any less "feeling" it would be on both parts, because there is that barrier between both. But I am not a man, nor have I ever been one, so I won't say I have any idea how it feels, because I can't know this.

posted by Afzal_Sunny7 on December 8, 2004 at 9:20 AM | link to this | reply

Kooka, first of all you have no idea of how or what

I teach my own child, so back up the bus on that. Next, you say that we need to teach a kid that sex is o.k. and not a bad thing-I never said that we should teach kids that sex is bad. Sex was created by God. Or maybe a primate according to you. So, if you have a son that is lets say 12, you gonna teach him it's o.k. to have sex at that age? Will you pat him on the back when he's 14 and "knocks up some girl"? We have to teach our children about sex at a young age, because society has pushed it on them and so now the parents have to assume responsibility for teaching their children about it sooner. But you have to give them ALL the information, not just your one sided view, as it should be with anything we teach our children.
Anytime you make a comment to me you have a habit of insulting my intelligence, when that doesn't work you insult my faith, when that doesn't work you insult my family or just insult me as a human. To me that shows cowardice and immaturity. I wonder if that's what you teach your children too, which will never make this society any better.
Don't bother commenting back to me, I won't be here.

posted by PastorB on December 7, 2004 at 9:27 PM | link to this | reply

I agree with some aspects of your comment to Uni here, Kooka

its sort of akin to Prohibition or the ' reverse psychology' of lowering the drinking age.

posted by calmcantey75 on December 7, 2004 at 8:01 PM | link to this | reply

tomcompley

Thank you for that information. It does not surprise me one bit.

posted by kooka_lives on December 7, 2004 at 7:56 PM | link to this | reply

uni

Teaching abstinence is what has lead us to the problems we are having. It is very much outdated now and due to some still trying to teach such idea, we are having the responsibility problems that make it so that as a society we have to keep abortions going. Obviously as always the point of my post was completely missed by you.

Once we start to get our selves grown up as a society and teach our kids that there is nothing wrong with sex and are much more open about it all, then they will start to be able to figure out that abstinence might be best for them or waiting for marriage. The values of respect for themselves will come from being taught the facts and giving the respect to be allowed to decided for themselves what is best.

A big issue that I have with Christians ideas is the lack of respect those ideas have for the children themselves. I believe that you teach children to have respect for themselves by teaching them that they are going to be able to make the right choice when the time come and helping them to see what they right choice is, and understanding that if they make a choice that does not agree with you that you will still respect the simple fact that it was their choice and you let them make it. Just telling the kid to not have sex because it is bad to have sex before they get married shows no respect and causes them to want to go out and have sex.

posted by kooka_lives on December 7, 2004 at 7:55 PM | link to this | reply

sunnybeach

I will openly admit that my comment there was pushing it. I am well aware that there are going to be a fair amount of exception to that, but there was a basic idea that I was trying to get across and really could not figure a better way to phrase it at the time. I have never had a problem with using a condom. I really feel have never noticed a difference, so I am very puzzled by the guys out there who have some macho thing about it all.

I do very much agree that the men should be held as responsible as the women. I am very sorry that I did not go into that in this post. I can see how you could think I was focusing on the women some what' and leaving the men out of it.

The responsibility needs to be from all involved in the act itself. Men like the fathers of your children are part of the bigger problem that comes from our sexual views. They feel they can go and create the problem, but because we somehow hold women more responsible when it comes to sex they somehow feel that they should be allowed to get away with some obviously wrong actions and not have to be man enough to accept the responsibility that comes from those actions.

I fully agree with you there.

posted by kooka_lives on December 7, 2004 at 7:47 PM | link to this | reply

unicorn,

Teaching abstinance does not work. The USA has very poor sex education and a much higher teenage pregnancy rate than in Europe. Britain has some sex education at the discretion of individual schools but it is poor compared to European sex education. Britain has a higher rate of teenage pregnancy than European countries. In the USA there are 48 teen pregnancies per 1,000 girls. In the Netherlands (which is possibly the most sexually liberal state in the world) this is just 7 per 1,000. In Sweden, free condoms have been distributed since the 1970s. The result - a very low teen pregancy rate.

The figures seem to speak for themselves. Teaching abstinance does not dissuade teenagers from having sex. Family planning groups estimate that 88% of teenagers who have pledged abstinance break their promise (source: BBC News Online) and when they do have sex they are less likely to use protection because they haven't recieved adequate sex education. When teenagers are taught abstinance they are taught that protection doesn't work. This is a dangerous lie.

posted by tomcopley on December 7, 2004 at 10:07 AM | link to this | reply

not once did you mention

teaching abstinance. Or having respect enough for yourself to save sex for marriage, or to respect yourself enough so as not to use sex.
Why am I not surprised.

posted by PastorB on December 6, 2004 at 7:55 PM | link to this | reply

Good Post

Good post on responible sex.

Although, I have to disagree on at least one point... "If a woman really wanted to have true control over her body she would use birth control and never allow herself to have an unwanted pregnancy."

My daughter was born from the fact that I "refused" to have sex with her father without protection, which he never had a problem with any other time, but he didn't want to wear the protection this time, and forced himself on me without it.

The case of my son's father is almost the same, only no force, just deception, that I didn't realize till much later that during sex he would "slip the condom off" and after sex, if he couldn't "slip it back on" he would quickly turn around and "pretend" he was removing a condom.

I'm not for abortion....especially to be used as birth control, but in my eyes, men are as equally responsible for abortion. I think many abortions would not happen if the "father" were responsible enough to his part. It's not easy being a woman, knowing you are going to be left to take care of a baby alone.

I am here with my 2 kids alone now, their fathers do next to none of their care....my daughter's father takes her to his mother's for maybe a total of 18 hours a month. And my son's father takes him maybe 15 hours a month tops.  They pay child support only because of force, and neither is paying what they are supposed to or providing medical like they were supposed to. My daughter's father because he whined that he couldn't afford for $250 out of a gross of about $1300-$1400 a month to be taken off of him. My son's father the woman favored because he put on this "daddy" routine, and the woman was treating him like the victim.

All this crap and people wonder why their are abortions....it's because people "don't" feel a responsibility for their actions.

posted by Afzal_Sunny7 on December 6, 2004 at 7:48 PM | link to this | reply