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I don't believe in God in the biblical sense because I don't believe the Bible is God's words.  God only has power over those that believe in him but at the same time God gave man free will and some people use their free will to believe in him and some don't.  That's really my only justification for their being a God.  Basically I'm almost a true atheist.  Maybe for me God is a way to explain the unexplainable.

posted by Shavonne on December 23, 2004 at 11:32 AM | link to this | reply

Shavonne

Thank You

Although I would like to add that I have often said there could be a God, but not the God of the Bible. My idea of God would be very much limited in what it could do. That would be one reason as to why it had to work through evolution to create us. For although I really do not believe in 'God' in the Biblical idea I do see some logic in the idea that something had a hand in creating us, but we were not created out of nothing in the form we are now and whatever created us is not all-powerful or any such nonsense and does not really have any power over us. It is just my beliefs are not centered on this possible being, but instead are focused more on what is right there in front of me. I do not really care if something created us and I am not going to worship it in any way, simple because I do not believe that is how things should work. My kids should not worship me simply because I did the deed with my wife and fathered them. And I do not wish for worship from them, but I will earn their respect through being a good father and being part of their lives, which is how it should work. if there is some kind of God out there and it wishes for me to acknowledge it it better come and earn my respect.

You know what? I think I just got a great idea for a post. Hopefully I will have time for that tonight.

posted by kooka_lives on December 13, 2004 at 4:02 PM | link to this | reply

Kooka

Wow.  It's amazing how much we think alike.  I've read a lot of your posts today.  I am impressed.  We do differ on one issue.  I do believe in God but nothing else.  The Bible is a load of crap, though the intentions of the book I believe were sincere.  

posted by Shavonne on December 13, 2004 at 1:44 AM | link to this | reply

steeler

depends upon the definition of sin
the young rich man didn't sin -- he said he'd kept all the commandments -- he kept the law so he didn't sin.
this kind of law is easy to keep -- once someone gets older.
it's the other stuff.
it's life stuff
it's state of mind
religion has nothing to do with this kind of state of mind

posted by Xeno-x on December 10, 2004 at 8:09 AM | link to this | reply

steelerman

Unlike you I am not selfish. I am not trying to please a higher power and gain his approval for my actions. The only reason you sin is because you are trying to please God and the only way to please God is to make it clear that you are not worthy of God's grace and by trying to make it clear you are not worthy of God's grace you are being about as selfish as can be. It is an interesting circle of logic, but it works. The only way to be worthy of God's grace is to keep on claiming that you are not, because you must always say that you are nothing compares to God in order for you to believe you are anything at all and through that feel that you are worthy of God's grace even though you will very much claim you are not. The only real reason to claim to be a sinner if you live a good life is to make it clear to others that you no you are not worthy and by doing so you are making it very clear that you instead think you are worthy.

Me, I am not a sinner because as I have tried to explain for me the only idea of sin that truly works if when a person knows that something is wrong but does it anyway. By that I do not sin much now days because I know better. I am not trying to please God or get others to believe that I am more humble than I am so that I can have that righteousness that you and many other Christians get from trying to point out just how unworthy they are. I am just not selfish enough to claim to be sinning when I am not.

posted by kooka_lives on December 10, 2004 at 8:01 AM | link to this | reply

Westwend

Just as I said:I am a Christian and I still sin. I have spiritual warfare. I can't imagine anyone saying that they mostly sinned when they were young but now that they are older and wiser then they mostly do not sin.

Look at my comment below.

posted by RedStatesMan on December 10, 2004 at 6:42 AM | link to this | reply

SINLESS????

ok let's start with the old romans passage -- sin is the transgression of the law.
fine
only now that law is done -- so there is no sin there.
but the NT now talks about the "royal law of love".
"Love one another"
"Love thy neighbor as thyself"
etc.
and
"do unto others"
I think it's summed up in the axiom of physicians
"do no harm"
when we honestly judge ourselves by this latter, then -- we should come to the conclusion that we sin a whole helluva lot more than we realize.
when we do or think something that either harms or has the potential for harming.
it's when we fail to take into account another's welfare.
when we are selfish
when we put another person down (the person, not the person's ideas, etc -- but then again we have to be careful)
when we make another person cry or maybe mad (although others will cry or get mad at things that really are harmless)
and we begin to learn every day what we have done that harms
and I discover that I probably sin in this way multiple times a day.
the idea is to put the other person on a high, sacred plane.
when you don't do that, then you are liable to harm the person in some manner

posted by Xeno-x on December 9, 2004 at 4:32 PM | link to this | reply

YEAH.. YOUR'E RIGHT

cause crazy people tick me off!

posted by homegirl on December 9, 2004 at 2:50 PM | link to this | reply

homegirl

That does not surpirse me.  Why we read anything more than the title before you judge what has been written? Who cares what the point of the post is?  You already knew since I wrote it that you would disagree with whatever it is I said here.

We get along so well when we stay away from each other you know.

posted by kooka_lives on December 9, 2004 at 1:18 PM | link to this | reply

I only read the title....

but I am officially appalled.

posted by homegirl on December 9, 2004 at 11:25 AM | link to this | reply

steelerman

Did you not read what I said?  I thought I made it very clear that the idea of sin for me is a very man made idea. It has nothing at all to do with God in the way I see it.

I told you what my idea of sin was if you were to ask me to define it and I told you.  By that idea of sin I really do not sin.  I do not do what I know I should not do, which to me is what sin should be.  It has nothing at all to do with God.

Why is that so many Christians seem to wish to not pay any attention to the explinations I give and instead decided that they have to try to force the idea of God into everyhting they can.  I made it very clear in my reply how I viewed sin.  I answered the question to both ideas of sin, the Chrsitian and my own, when in reality the Christian idea of sin is really stupid becuase it is not about personal guilt, but rather being worried about upsetting God.  My idea of sin is that you have done something you know to be wrong and so you are the one who has to live with the guilt of it. Sin is a manmade concept and so since you asked me my ideas on sin I gave an honest answer that was very clearly unrelated to God and yet somehow you still have to link the two, when in fact the only true link is that they were both created by the Chruch to gian power.  The big difference is that the concept of sin does have a more universal truth to it than God.  Sin can be defined as perosnal guilt for one's acctions, which anyone with morals should have.  By my idea of sin, I very rarely sin becuase I know better and I do what is right.  You keep on sinning becuase your idea of sin is the church's idea of sin, which is not a healthy way to live.  I also think that is why you can not seperate the idea of God from the idea of Sin, which are two very different ideas.  I have a very non-religious idea of sin because I do not believe that anything other than myself holds me responsible for my actions and there fore the only way I can truly sin is to do what I judge as being wrong.  Now that does not mean that I am my own God, which is most likly where you or one of the other Christians here will try to take that.  It just means that I have no need for some higher power to tell me right from wrong or watch over my actions.  I am man enough to be able to know when I do right and when I do wrong.

If I am stuck with your idea of sin and I have to say either sin can only be in the eyes of God or not at all, then I would say there is no sin since there is no God and so I can not sin.  I just will not give any power over my life to a fictional charcter.

You asked "what is your definition of sin? What does that word mean to you? Do you feel that you have ever sinned? "  I gave you an honest answer and you went and tried to make it into something it was not.  Did you really think it to be some cleaver trick question that you could use the answer of to try and say that I believe in God?  My answer clearly said that sin did not need to have anything to do with God.  I figure you had already planned out your comment well before I answered your question and so you really did not need to read what I said, but instead just saw that I had talked about sin and could then throw you comment up and try to discredit me in such a childish manner.  Did you know that such ploys were wrong and self degrading?  If so, then by my idea of sin you have sinned.

posted by kooka_lives on December 8, 2004 at 9:12 PM | link to this | reply

Kooka, Sin?

I am so glad to hear that for the most part you do not sin now as an adult. That is a pretty strong statement. I am a Christian and I still sin. I have spiritual warfare. I can't imagine anyone saying that they mostly sinned when they were young but now that they are older and wiser then they mostly do not sin. You have a pretty high opinion of yourself. The interesting part of your answer is that you did refer to sin. As an atheist, you do not believe in GOD; so why do you even talk as though sin exists. If GOD does not exist then why do you speak of sin even though you mentioned it being something the church cooked up to control its' members? As an atheist, you say there is no GOD, then you must be saying that there is no sin, right? If you say there is no sin then there is no right or wrong, correct?

posted by RedStatesMan on December 8, 2004 at 8:02 PM | link to this | reply

Matos

That really is your opinion and I greatly disagree with it. if what I have said here is morally wrong then organized religious groups who go out and hand out fliers with some very disgusting (And very much faked) pictures of what they are claiming to be aborted fetuses (Which are too well developed to be real ones) are much more morally wrong than I. Also, any who go and very openly state abortion is murder is guilty of this as well. The comparisons makes sense here and the title is very much about trying to get a point across to people.

For me it is more careless and more insulting to try to make sure you are not going to offend anyone because then you can not put the power into the point you are trying to make and instead end up dancing around the issue. I believe in being direct when you are trying to get a point across. Some of this sounds like we are back on the 'Mother F@#k' thing again (See I even went and consored myself there for you). It is looking for insult where there is none.

posted by kooka_lives on December 8, 2004 at 3:55 PM | link to this | reply

westwend

Sounds like a load of BS to me. Just one of those easy outs so that one does not have to deal with the real issue, that seem to pop up in religion all the time.

posted by kooka_lives on December 8, 2004 at 3:47 PM | link to this | reply

freerain

Thank you for those well spoken words.

posted by kooka_lives on December 8, 2004 at 3:45 PM | link to this | reply

steelerman

Sin is a very much man made concept. True sin for me is when I do something that I know is wrong when I do it, but I do it anyway. The basic concept of sin was obviously create to make people feel guilty about their actions. The church of course was bale to control people better by making them feel bad.

Have I sinned? Well, by the messed up ideas of the Christian beliefs I am sinner, since you are a sinner just for being born (I can not see life as being a sin myself) and beyond that just not believing God is a sin and so many other things that I do that are not really bad things and hurt no one and are of my own personal choice in life might be considered sins as well.

According to my own idea of sin have I sinned? Yes, mostly when I was young and did things that I knew were wrong for whatever reason it was that I was doing those things. As an adult I know better and so I do not do what I know to be wrong. Sometimes I have slipped for whatever reason, but on a whole I really do not sin.

posted by kooka_lives on December 8, 2004 at 3:44 PM | link to this | reply

     Listen Kooka, the title and comparisons were in bad taste. I'm as sure of this as I am sure there are many people who will remain silent over it. The number of people commenting on your post is nothing compared to the people reading it. As of right now, you are #3 in this category which means a hell of a lot more people are reading it than those who are commenting on it. Now if I am the only one with a problem with it, then so be it. It doesn't stop the comparison from being morally wrong. You could've used the example of mother's drowning children, mother's using insanity pleas by claiming this or that or father's who do the same. I'm just saying it was wrong how you brought this out. 

     I agree that we as a society have a lot of growing up to do. There are too many taboos and many, if not all of these, should be dragged out into the light. But why risk having your message ignored by the way it's presented? That's all I'm saying. So once again, I agree on the taboo thing but there are better ways to go about it.

posted by Matos on December 8, 2004 at 8:57 AM | link to this | reply

kid -- on that grace thing.

don't ask me
I'm only quoting a Catholic priest who's probably dead by now.
better to ask a Catholic priest.

But back to the Catechism (I'm having fun with this one)

under GRACE (pg 27)

Q: How can you get grace?
A: Baptism put grace in your soul for the first time.

Q: Can you lose grace?
A: Yes, by committing a serious sin.

Then here's a statement about babies (pg 28)

Babies who die without being baptizec cannot go to heaven because they die without grace. Instead, they go to Limbo, a place of natural happiness in the next world. God is not cruel or injust in not allowing them to enter heaven because grace is a gife, and no one has a right to a gift.

Also

Adults, who through their own fault, neglect to be baptized, do not go to Limbo, but to hell.

this last would probably include all of us who are commenting here.

posted by Xeno-x on December 8, 2004 at 7:37 AM | link to this | reply

Ata-boy Kooka!

You really hit a home run with this one---sad to say, it is true.  The poor woman who drowned her children in the bath tub explained that she did it to save their souls --that her children were full of evil, and the devil had taken them.  This was announced on the news, yes it was, I'm not making it up.  But the media swiftly shut it up--we didn't hear so much as a peep about her prosecution, her insanity defense, if they offered on.  Sadly, she was taking anti psychotic medication and just prior to this incident she was taken off the meds.

As for God's word:  Read Murder and Malice and if that doesn't do it, try Silent Condemnation

Abortion is a troubling thing, but as you said, until society matures regarding the nature of being human, that our nature is not corrupt and needing salvation and there is no sin, only choices and consequences here on earth, we will be debating this issue and disregard for the joy and wonder of life, giving, living and embracing life, will only make it all the harder for sanity to prevail.

It was alot to read all the comments--taking the moral high ground and shoving a topic in others view is sometimes necessary in this passive society--for christians, passivity alows them to keep on  misleading the masses that there is a loving, forgiving God waiting to take us all to heaven, if only we will hate our nature and hang it on a cross of suffering.

peace,

Freerain

posted by freerain on December 7, 2004 at 11:26 PM | link to this | reply

Kooka...

according to your belief of there being no GOD, what is your definition of sin? What does that word mean to you? Do you feel that you have ever sinned?

posted by RedStatesMan on December 7, 2004 at 8:15 PM | link to this | reply

What Is Your Definition?

I would be interested in what your definition if sin is Kooka?

posted by RedStatesMan on December 7, 2004 at 7:49 PM | link to this | reply

KOOKA, YOU'RE A LEGEND IN YOUR OWN MIND

did you get your ability of saracasm from the ape side of you? Must be why it hasn't evolved to it's full maturity level yet I would imagine.

posted by PastorB on December 7, 2004 at 7:45 PM | link to this | reply

And Matos

Uni does not count as someone who got offend by my title. She get offend if I tell her she wrote a good post (Honestly she has). She has already decided to get offend at anything I write just because she wants to stay mad at me.

posted by kooka_lives on December 7, 2004 at 7:25 PM | link to this | reply

uni

Are you really using facts for once in one of your posts? These are not propaganda facts again are they? I am very tempted to go and read your post, but if I do and you have gone and used religious propaganda as facts once more , I may be tempted to point out real facts that might not agree with the propaganda and you would then get upset and try to claim that my proven facts are somehow opinion and then we'll be running around in that circle we always get into when you can not figure out facts from opinion.

posted by kooka_lives on December 7, 2004 at 7:22 PM | link to this | reply

jackie

I know. I did not take it as anything personal.

posted by kooka_lives on December 7, 2004 at 7:18 PM | link to this | reply

matos

I really think you are reading way too much into this and are trying to make it into something it is not. It really seems like you are the only one here who has a problem with it.

Also, my line about sterilization was saying that there are certain people who should be sterilized, not groups of people.

posted by kooka_lives on December 7, 2004 at 7:17 PM | link to this | reply

kooka, then don't believe that anyone is born with sin, I don't care

when I see someone flippently tossing around the subject of abortion, I get very offended, I don't care what your excuse, justification or motivation was for it. Maybe you should read the facts about abortion in my blog "wake up your butt is on fire". Or any one of the 42,601 pages about how an abortion is performed, located on the internet.

posted by PastorB on December 7, 2004 at 6:53 PM | link to this | reply

Kooka

the ' wishy washy' comment was not aimed at you or anyone in paticular.

posted by calmcantey75 on December 7, 2004 at 6:11 PM | link to this | reply

     By the way you phrased your opinions, it sounded like you were most definitely making a judgement. It even sounded like judgement when you spoke of sterilizing certain groups of people. But I will take your word that you weren't.

     From reading other blogs, I see that many people here write titles to attract attention. Although I understand it, I believe that as a person with higher morals(Athiests) as you claim to have, you could have found a better way to attract attention. If you're going to lead you have to lead by example.

     I know that the main point of your post was about how flawed the concept of Heaven is. We got it. There were so many ways to have presented your argument but you chose the way which was morally wrong. I know you think that the people who read this weren't offended. Only a few people agreed with what you said enough to comment to your post. I say a few compared with how many people read your blog. To be in the top 5 means that many people read your blog. What of them? Most people dislike what they read and never comment on it. Just the same, many people might like it and not write about it. My question is if you're not sure as to the percentage, why offend them? Offensive remarks never open minds, they start wars.

    

posted by Matos on December 7, 2004 at 5:14 PM | link to this | reply

Everyone

I think I replied to all of you now.

There went all my time for blogging tonight. The family is home now, so I am going to go and spend time with them. Most likely any comments made after this will not get a reply until tomorrow.

Thank you all for reading my post and leaving comments.

posted by kooka_lives on December 7, 2004 at 5:05 PM | link to this | reply

Matos

I myself have often tried to point out that as far as I am concerned the only true lesson one should take from the Bible is 'Do Un to Others as you would have them do un to you' and the world would be a much better place. Most of the rest of the Bible can really get confusing and be used to justify all sorts of things.

I do not think it was irresponsible for me to say what I said here. the one person I know of who has had an abortions really did not care at all about it, but she is not the type of person I enjoying spending my time with and feel that I have been very lucky to not have had to deal with her for many years now.

I am not trying condemn anyone for having an abortion. I understand just how personal such a thing must be. Yet regretfully there is a very logic link between abortions and mothers who do murder they born children. The only real difference is that a born child is known and has a live. Which is one of the reasons why abortions become a difficult thing to classify. It is very hard to say it is murder when it is something which is unknown and has not really lived as of yet.

I mock no one in this post and I do not casually insult anyone's beliefs. Some may find insult in what I say, but they are the ones who wish to find insult in anything that does not agree with their ideas.

I very much believe this is the right way to get things stirred up. People do not rally listen to you is you sit back and try to be Pc about what you say. I wish to be heard myself and it looks like I was able to do just that with this post. So far no one has told me that I had offended them or upset them in the way you seem to think I may have (I already knew that many here would be upset with my words, since they get upset over everything I say here. Most of which you just upset by saying the Bible is not the word of God). I hope that is because they read the post and at least got something of the idea that I was trying to express here.

posted by kooka_lives on December 7, 2004 at 5:03 PM | link to this | reply

Cynthia

Thank you.

posted by kooka_lives on December 7, 2004 at 4:48 PM | link to this | reply

uni

So are you saying that a fetus and any child who is killed before they are able to learn of God and such and can then believe in God, are going to Hell? Is God really that cruel to send innocents to Hell before they are given a chance? Of course that gets into one of my real serious issue with original sin, which to me has to be about the most horrible thing in the belief in God. I can not believe that anyone is born with sin.

posted by kooka_lives on December 7, 2004 at 4:47 PM | link to this | reply

mysteria

Thank you very much.
I have no problem with you sharing this with your friend.

posted by kooka_lives on December 7, 2004 at 4:44 PM | link to this | reply

Matos

I am not for one moment making light of abortion here. As for consideration for those who have had abortions or thinking about it, I do not believe that I have upset them with my post. I am not justifying nor condemning abortion here. I pass no judgement here. I am looking at one set of possible perspectives. I go well beyond abortions in general in the post. I will admit that I phrased my title the way I did to attract attention, but the post itself is about far more than abortion.

posted by kooka_lives on December 7, 2004 at 4:42 PM | link to this | reply

jackie

Also, I do not believe that fear and respect are even closely links. I do not believe that child who does not do bad things because they fear being spanked has any respect for their parents. For one spanking does not really tell the child what action it was that was wrong nor does it show any direct consequences for their actions. For one thing, I believe children are much more intelligent than that. Spanking is the kind of thing you do when training a dog and can really just focus on direct actions, while children are many levels above that and will learn best when they can clearly see what actions were wrong and become aware that there are direct, unique consequences for those actions.

posted by kooka_lives on December 7, 2004 at 4:37 PM | link to this | reply

     There is a reason why I stopped being a Christian. Anything written down and passed as the actual word of God will be found as being flawed. The Bible is flawed in it's logic and I never said otherwise. All in all, it's message is pretty clear(New Testament). Love one another.

     To look at the Bible and say what you did about abortion was irresponsible. To talk about abortion and make the comparison of women drowning their children was abominable. If you ever talked to a woman who was faced with the decision of having an abortion, you would see a woman struggling to do what is right by herself, her family, her boyfriend, her beliefs  and her community. Any one of them would find your example of comparing them to a murdering mother heartbreaking. Seeing that you say you're against abortions, maybe you don't see the difference. It does surprise me because if you were as open minded as you say, Shouldn't you show some compassion towards women deciding whether to possibly destroy the life of a child by having or not having it.

     The Christian concept of Heaven and Hell are flawed. Perhaps their ideas of Heaven aren't up to your standard. That's fine too because there is free will and that includes atheism as well. But does that give you the right mock the suffering of women to make a point? You said it yourself, you wanted to show that Christian thought on Heaven was wrong but did you do the right thing by the comparisons you made? Time and again, you say that the athiests you know are the morally upright. Was it right of you to casually insult people's belief and mock other people's pain? If you really wish shake things up and get people to think, do you think this is the right way to do it? I ask your sense of morality. 

posted by Matos on December 7, 2004 at 4:33 PM | link to this | reply

jackie

Thank you for saying 'I don't think it was his objective to anger so much as to stimulate thought and introspection.' That is what I generally try for with my posts.

Right now it looks like I did such, which feels good. I think all my blogging time tonight will go to just trying to reply to all these comments, which just keep on coming.

posted by kooka_lives on December 7, 2004 at 4:32 PM | link to this | reply

jackie

I will very much disagree with you about spanking a child. I am not wishy washy with my boys, but to me the idea that any parents could physically hurt their children in any way is just disturbing. You punish them and makes sure they understand that if they do wrong actions there will be' consequences, but spanking in my experience from childhood accomplishes nothing at all. If a parent is really into to spanking, then I would question that parent's abusiveness towards their child. I can keep my boys in line without having to ever threaten to hit them.

posted by kooka_lives on December 7, 2004 at 4:29 PM | link to this | reply

Matos

"In the end they do suffer with not truly knowing if they did wrong or right by their actions." Is at some level the whole point of this post, and many other posts that some just do not seem to get the point of. There really are many thin lines between right and wrong, even if you try to follow God's laws.

I did not write this post ot anger anyone, and I do not believe I have really done such. If they do get angry over this post then they missed the point of it and most likely will find just about anything I write angers them.

posted by kooka_lives on December 7, 2004 at 4:25 PM | link to this | reply

Kooka, your responses

in the comments section were as good as the post. It so energizes me when I encounter a rational mind.

posted by Cynthia on December 7, 2004 at 4:22 PM | link to this | reply

jackie

I will direct you as well to the other post I wrote yesterday about abortion. I think I may have touched on some of what you are saying here.

One of the points that seems to be over looked here is that I am not saying that those who commit the acts are not doing anything wrong. I am trying to say that there is a logic ot eh idea that those souls who get aborted are being saved and so at some level would that not say abortions are a good thing, even if the ones who commits such actions are sinning? Some of this goes into 'Do the ends justify the means?" There seems to be a level in the Christians beliefs where you can find logic to justifying various questionable actions. We can go beyond the abortion idea and look at going to war in the name of God. Is it wrong to kill (Even though a commandment clearly say it is ) if by killing you are making things better for someone? Is that not what Bush is right now justifying with Iraq? Many Christians seem to be more than willing to kill off thousands (A according to their beliefs sending them to Hell most likely) to make life better for those who were being persecuted against, yet are very much against a person killing a fetus which might have a great chance of getting to Heaven by dying before it has a chance to be influenced by Satan.

One thing though, I do not feel that all abortions are due to someone being selfish. I only personally know of one person who has had an abortion as far as I know and I would never wish to see her as a parent and her abortion really did fall into the selfish area, although there was more to it. In the case of people like her I think we need to have mandatory sterilizations for some people, but that is a topic for different time. A situation which I have heard of happening is a young girl who thinks she is in love and ends up getting date rapped by her boy friend and feels very guilty and will not tell anyone what happened and then finds out she is pregnant and instead of risking getting called a 'slut' and looked down on (Which would not only affect the girl's life, but the child's life as well in a very negative way), she goes and has an abortion. I do not like abortions in general and if our society would grow up more, even such cases as a girl who has been raped, would no longer end up being looked at as a 'slut' or someone to be looked down on. Until we over come our very outdated views on sex we will always have such problems.

posted by kooka_lives on December 7, 2004 at 4:19 PM | link to this | reply

Kooka, yours is the kind of

reasoning I do understand!! I love someone who can sock it to em with a smile:)

posted by Cynthia on December 7, 2004 at 4:17 PM | link to this | reply

For WESTWEND & MATOS

In Exodus it speaks of what happens to one who causes a woman to miscarry/abort. If there is further damage; like she is unable to have children again for example, the penalty is very high. So this shows that the "fetus" IS protected by law. The "fetus" also possesses sin nature according to Psalm 51, the "fetus" is fashioned by God accorting to Pslam 139 and is called by God- See Isaiah 49 or Jeremiah 1. And we know by the story in Luke 1 that the baby- oh excuse me -"fetus" is active.

posted by PastorB on December 7, 2004 at 4:13 PM | link to this | reply

Matos

I am not trying to anger anyone. Also, I would hope that anyone who did read my post would understand that I am not endorsing abortion at all or finding a way to justify it. I ma looking at various parts of the Christian beliefs and showing how in my mind there is a level of contradiction in them. I see no need for a disclaimer for any of my posts. I feel we are all adults here and understand that we state things here to stir up debate.

posted by kooka_lives on December 7, 2004 at 4:01 PM | link to this | reply

((((KooKa))))))

I say...Aren't you super duper clever...!!?  No I take it back... You Are A Master!  wOw!  What a statement you have made!  Absolutely IngEEnious.  You get props for this BIG TIME... Do you mind if I share this with a friend?  He is not a blogger but he appreciates a great brain when he sees one...  love, mysteria

posted by mysteria on December 7, 2004 at 4:00 PM | link to this | reply

westwend

If " Only those who have grace in their souls at the moment of death." can really make a lot of good people end up not getting into Heaven then. What happens if a God fearing person who goes ot church weekly and just lives his life as a good Christian one day is walking across the street and has a moment of weakness when he sees a really attractive women and has impure thoughts about her and is then hit by a car and instantly killed? It would seem that he died without grace (The one time in his life possible that he was without grace even) in his soul at the moment of death would it not?

Also, what is considered grace in this case? I would think an innocent child is full of grace myself. Is grace all about believing in God or is it something more? That becomes part of the issue when you follow such verses.

posted by kooka_lives on December 7, 2004 at 3:56 PM | link to this | reply

Y-L-F

I have no problem with the idea the Elvis is evil. In fact I already wrote a post way back when about how Elvis was the living embodiment of the Seven Deadly Sins.

posted by kooka_lives on December 7, 2004 at 3:49 PM | link to this | reply

Matos

The point is not about the Commandment though. I am not looking at this from the point of view of the person committing the action. That is irrelevant to this idea. It is about Christian idea of Heaven and how it seems wrong for the Christians to be so against the idea of death when according to their beliefs death is a really good thing for the person who has died (Unless for whatever reason they are going to Hell). While the act of killing may be a sin, the one who has been killed is hardly a true victim if they are being rewarded by going to Heaven and being able to escape from this world of sin.

If the Bible does not go into the where fetuses go, how about young children? Do they get into heaven if they have not really had time to learn about good and evil, but in the same respect are not old enough to become true believers of God? I would think that children in that situation would be the same as a fetus.

I wrote another post yesterday that went into more detail about my stand on abortions. I do not agree with them and feel they are wrong, but until our society grows beyond the various social ideas that have created our present taboos on sex and sex education, there will be a regretful level at which we need abortions due to the lack of teaching responsibility to children.

posted by kooka_lives on December 7, 2004 at 3:47 PM | link to this | reply

roofpig

Not trying to make anyone uncomfortable here. Just looking at things and telling it how I see it. To me the idea of Heaven makes this life completely meaning less and I know my life is not meaningless. For this life to have meaning and be important, there really is no logic in any kind of after life, especially Heaven which is about as scary as can be as far as I am concerned. Who wants to live forever in any form, especailly perfection?

posted by kooka_lives on December 7, 2004 at 3:38 PM | link to this | reply

steelerman

There is nothing at all childish about my last two post. The idea are right there in the way Christianity is present and practiced. I can not help but wonder if you are not making such a comment because you are at a total lost as to how you can go against this logic and so your only way of reply is to try and make it look as though I ma just goofing around wtih these ideas.

Death is far from celebrated by any Christian I have veer meet. I have been to to many funerals in the last few years to believe otherwise. Those who believe almost always seem to be the ones who are the most scared and feel the most lost from what I have seen. They are not crying for us who are still on the Earth, but because they do not know for certain if they will ever see their loved one again and they know that. In fact funeral services are most likely the time when a believer is at their weakest because it does bring up all the doubt as to if there really is any afterlife at all.

ALso, that logic of celebrating death would very much go against the ideas of being against any kind of death then. Unless it is out right murder, we should allow people to die. Doctors are very wrong thing to prolong life. Such a thing was one point I tried to make, but you seemed to have only picked out what you wished to address instead of the full idea that was expressed there.

posted by kooka_lives on December 7, 2004 at 3:35 PM | link to this | reply

Agreed.

posted by Matos on December 7, 2004 at 11:54 AM | link to this | reply

Matos

unfortuantly there will always be nuts out there who use the bible as a justification to do their stupid, insane stuff., but I do believe their is great wisdom contained in it that has been overlooked and disdained because of that.

posted by calmcantey75 on December 7, 2004 at 11:45 AM | link to this | reply

     All I was saying that it could be interpreted as abuse. Unfortunately it would seem that the abortion issue has been over looked. I'm glad Jackie that you believe this post made you think. It has made me think as well, but not at the way I look at abortion, not at the way I look at an interpretation of the bible to support that belief or how this post made rethink any values from a different perspective. It did make me think about how sometimes the true nature of man can be read in what he decides to write. I still think it was unappropriate to make light about abortion in the way it was talked about. No consideration was given to the pain of the individuals put in that position. 

posted by Matos on December 7, 2004 at 11:15 AM | link to this | reply

YLF

Ya know, your pretty much right :) No hard feelings?

posted by SincerityAnna on December 7, 2004 at 10:55 AM | link to this | reply

Too much discipline can make the child feel abused.

In such cases, the child who was beaten or hit by their parent may be driven to treat their own children too leniently, for fear of being abusive as they felt their own parent was.  Then the abuse comes about in the form of neglect of discipline.  A moderate course that leaves the child feeling sternly guided, but not imposed upon, especially physically, must be followed in order to achieve the greatest degree of success.

posted by TARZANA on December 7, 2004 at 10:52 AM | link to this | reply

Jackie...

ANd we'll leave it at that :)

posted by SincerityAnna on December 7, 2004 at 10:51 AM | link to this | reply

thats O.K. Sincerity

everybody has their methods of raising their children that they believe is right, and it also depends on the individual child of course. Some children need different forms of discipline than others. 

 

posted by calmcantey75 on December 7, 2004 at 10:46 AM | link to this | reply

matos, the post did not offend me

but I can see how it could offend some, of course. I dont think it was his objective to anger so much as to stimulate thought and introspection.

posted by calmcantey75 on December 7, 2004 at 10:43 AM | link to this | reply

I am NOT going to argue...

but jackie I have to disagree...but that's it...I leave it at that.

posted by SincerityAnna on December 7, 2004 at 10:41 AM | link to this | reply

in my opinion one of the worst forms of child abuse

is to be soft and wishy washy towards your child

posted by calmcantey75 on December 7, 2004 at 10:39 AM | link to this | reply

children need to be spanked

that doesn't mean literally beat the hell out of them with a club or something. The Bible is teaching us the all importance of not sparing the child physical discipline, OR psychological impression of showing your child your displeasure and disapproval. If your child truly loves and adores you he/she will fear that more than a spanking., and spankings help to instill the essential respect and admiration. What daddy/mommy says, they mean. This is discipline and it is crucial because it stays with them for the rest of their life.

posted by calmcantey75 on December 7, 2004 at 10:38 AM | link to this | reply

     Jackie-O, I hate to say it but that proverb you quoted could be interpretted as condoning child abuse. The Book of Proverbs was written by man, not God. They are a collection of words to live by, not God's words.

     I understand that this subject of abortion is a very emotional one which is why I believe Kooka decided to mention it. From the previous comments I read, most get extremely emotional and lose sight of their objective. In using the Bible to explain why someone is wrong, you leave yourself open to other interpretations. I'm sure you may not agree with me but I do know that you were deeply offended by this post. I do not agree with Kooka in his conclusion as to what Christians might believe. I do believe that this post served it's only real purpose, to anger the reader.

     I know of mothers who have aborted their babies for many reasons. In the end they do suffer with not truly knowing if they did wrong or right by their actions. The law is on their side but their families, friends and beliefs may be divided in their support. These women suffer greatly from that decision and I think that to make light of it, as kooka did, was in very bad taste.

    I would like to ask you a question, did this post open your mind or close it to whatever Kooka was trying to say?  

posted by Matos on December 7, 2004 at 9:28 AM | link to this | reply

Jackie is right that we must correct children.  Personally, I don't believe the beating with a rod is beneficial, but correction must be made in order to guide a child in the right direction.  They won't get to their destination in a strange world without a map. 

posted by TARZANA on December 7, 2004 at 9:05 AM | link to this | reply

There is a biblical logic that rules out abortion

there is no specific scripture that states abortion is wrong. There is no specific scripture that says sparing a baby from the corruption of Satan is wrong. But there is logic from themes and precepts demonstrated throughout scripture. There are many scriptures that deal with children on how to save a child from corruption:

Do not withhold correction from a child,

For if you beat him with a rod, he will not die.

14 You shall beat him with a rod,

And deliver his soul from hell. Proverbs 23:13-14.

You mentioned accountability, and people being responsible for their actions. Well of course MOTIVE needs to be a factor in debating abortion. Peoples motives must be examined, weighed, changed and disciplined. THere is something wrong n society when any kind of selfish, undisciplined, childish motive is able to have free reign in the ability to have an abortion. How do these people develop such selfishness? How does society view its duty as to accomidate this practice at the whim of any and every motive. Many say: its my body and I can do what I want with it. There is something direly unaccountable and reckless at the heart of that, and abortion on demand that is unrestrained and viewed as progressive and beneficial demonstrates dire selfishness and unaccountability which will bring down our society eventually.

posted by calmcantey75 on December 7, 2004 at 8:55 AM | link to this | reply

     As Uni would say, the idea of Purgatory or Limbo is a Catholic idea. So where does that leave Protestant religions? As for the passages you referenced to, if a life of a child is considered not as important as a full grown adult when compared, is it important when compared with other children? What would make one fetus more deserving to live than another? I don't think that the Bible says anything where this question is concerned but I could be wrong. Oh and my use of the bold faced, italicised "as" was to imply that they are important but not as important. Do you agree?

     I agree that a disclaimer should be written down but that doesn't seem to be the norm in this blog. It was reckless of Kooka to write what he did since it only serves to anger anyone who reads this. Angering people doesn't open minds, it closes them. I really can't see this post doing nothing more than degenerate into a name calling contest in the comment section.    

posted by Matos on December 7, 2004 at 7:29 AM | link to this | reply

How can anyone benefit from being cut off from their life support and thrown in the trash can??  It's ignorance.  I've written to Congress more than once to put a stop to it.

posted by TARZANA on December 7, 2004 at 7:27 AM | link to this | reply

re:-- heaven

(from A Catechism for Adults, by Rev. William J. Cogan, (c) 1958

Q: Who will go to heaven?
A: Only those who have grace in their souls at the moment of death.

Thre's more -- I'll have to look for it.

I do remember hearing and reading that the souls of unborn and infants who never had the chance to "have grace in their souls" will go either to Purgatory or Limbo to await the time when they do have grace in their souls.

So it does actually seem that a mother or other person can sacrifice their own mortal soul for that of the unborn, thus giving the unsoul a better chance at Heaven than it would get in life.

But of course this is ludicrous -- we'd better add a disclaimer here right away that says that we really don't mean that someone should really have an abortion in order to help the child get to heaven better -- in this manner we can hopefully avert the situation of someone saying that we are responsible for their having an abortion. Or religionists blaming us for such.

And maybe those of a religious persuasion can also issue such a disclaimer with a full, clear explanation of what they really mean.

posted by Xeno-x on December 7, 2004 at 7:14 AM | link to this | reply

re: abortion

I've read it once -- will have to search again
about the only mention of killing anunborn occurs in either Deuteronomy or Leviticus -- I think Leviticus -- the penalty for accidentally killing a fetus in a womb is not so great as accidentally killing a born person.
This means that god at that time did not consider the fetus as being as important as a full-born person.

posted by Xeno-x on December 7, 2004 at 6:59 AM | link to this | reply

kooka,

There are some words that hide their meaning and get away with it because people prefer to remain in ignorance.  This happens when a few letters get reversed and run together, and nobody catches the error.  For instance:

Heaven -  Ha even!  (or, you get what you deserve)

Israel    -  Is real

Elvis     -  Evils

In this case, I can't see how abortion would benefit anyone, but as most people are simply ignorant, deception is very often the rule.

posted by TARZANA on December 7, 2004 at 6:25 AM | link to this | reply

     I would think that the commandment, Thou shall not kill, was enough. But you're right, the bible mentions nothing about abortions. So where does that leave us? It leaves that commandment open to interpretation.

     I think that is where the abortion controvery begins: Is the baby alive at conception? while still in the womb? or when it's born? You see, if people believe the child is alive at the moment of conception, then it is at the moment of conception when the child carries the burden of sin. Original sin. If a woman decides to have an abortion any time after that, then pro life activists call it murder.

     There is no place in the bible that says where aborted fetuses go. So in reference to your statement of aborting a fetus to send it to heaven maybe false. It might go somewhere else. Where? I don't know but if I die, I'll try to come back and let you know.

     So where do you stand in the abortion issue? Is it murder or not? Do you want to answer? I guess we will all see if you do. 

posted by Matos on December 7, 2004 at 6:20 AM | link to this | reply

Yikes... Kook, this one may be stepping very close to the line.  I understand your wanting to think about things, but I have to admit this post made me pretty uncomfortable.

posted by roofpig on December 7, 2004 at 6:01 AM | link to this | reply

Now this...

post displays your juvenile view of GOD, the Bible and religion as a whole. If you are going to be an atheist then back up your convictions with something that is serious and not silly. I know you are an adult but the last two posts seem to be from a child who has no knowledge of GOD nor the Bible. By the way, to inform you, death is supposed to be celebrated. You have some people who cry at death but have you ever thought that they are crying for all of us left in this world that is ruled by Satan? Expand the mind young grasshopper! You may grow up one day.

posted by RedStatesMan on December 6, 2004 at 9:27 PM | link to this | reply

to tired to respond right now, but I want to debate this out.

Ill pick it up tomorrow.

posted by calmcantey75 on December 6, 2004 at 7:57 PM | link to this | reply

jackie

I am very much against abortions myself, but regretfully due to the various ideas we as a society have, we will not grow out of abortions until we grow out of our issues about sex. I have a whole post planned on that issue right now. My issue with abortion is not religious in any way, but is more about taking responsibility for your actions. But all of that will be in that post whenever I get around to writing it.

I never said, nor do I believe that abortions are done for any noble reasons. The point there was that using Biblical logic, there is justification that abortions are not a bad thing. It matters not the motive of the one performing the abortion or the one getting the abortion, it is the results that should be most important. If an innocent soul has been spared from sin and given the great gift of passage to Heaven, how is that a bad thing?
You have admitted that you are sending the child to Heaven and freeing the child from sin. It matters not if you have sinned because you believed in Jesus and are going to ask to be forgiven because your actions were selfish.

I have no problem with you sing scripture in this debate since the ideas here are Biblical, or at least what it seems that he Christians believe to be Biblical. I can not really find anything in the Bible pro or con to this, but instead have mostly had to go by what I see Christians claiming. I would be very interested in seeing a scripture that clearly states such logic to be wrong.

Where beyond the commandment does God give reason to not kill a child to free them from sin? What are the reasons given?

posted by kooka_lives on December 6, 2004 at 6:54 PM | link to this | reply

Uni

You didn't get it, you'll never get it, you have no desire to even try and get it. You like being blind, so feel free to keep on walking around blind and believe as you do. I understand that ideas that might get you to think ar a little too much for you.

posted by kooka_lives on December 6, 2004 at 6:43 PM | link to this | reply

Kooka

it all boils down to MOTIVE. Why is the individual killing the baby? A baby that dies of natural causes or an accident is, as you say, spared the corruption of Satan and allowed a sure pass into heaven. This is true. But a baby that is murdered, or ' aborted', well that baby also goes to Heaven and has as well been spared  the same prospects as the one who has been offed by natural causes. But now we arrive at the moral issue of your argument: WHAT IS WRONG WITH ABORTION IF IT SPARES THE POSSIBILITY THAT A PERSON WILL BE CORRUPTED BY THE DEVIL,  REJECT CHRIST AND THUS FORCE THE HAND OF JUDGEMENT ON IT BY GOD. Clever Kooka, very clever. And good argument.

First I would argue that the majority of abortions and infanticide are not committed for the noble theological reasons you propose. They are done out of selfishness, fear, immaturaty or psychosis. Or all four. Of course the enabling, greased up cogs of society help with routine abortions for the weak or embittered,  faint hearted destitute. But they are not done to ' spare from Satan'.

Now even if a rational, healthly minded person decided to spare their child from the possibility of being corrupted, that person would be wrong. Because based on the scriptures I gave you before, the same Christian morality that is based on scripture that would condemn the soulless humanism of abortion clearly gives forbiddance to the same the humanistic logic of mercy  you propose.

The same Christian morality that you claim  logically ( unwittingly) contains an expediant way to bypass the tragedy of Satan and jugement actually contains a means of defeating this possibility( which is of course a possibility). My question to you now is this: is your argument based on what the actually Bible teaches on this issue or is it based on your own preconceived ideas and convictions on what it teaches. I can make the case against you on this issue this based on scripture, but it seems you will reject it because of your inherent disdain for the use of scripture in any debate.

anyway, the MOTIVE is the issue. And even if that motive is based on the theological mercy you suggest, scripture rules it out.

posted by calmcantey75 on December 6, 2004 at 5:06 PM | link to this | reply

O.K., I'll admit it, I WAS WRONG,

I thought your other post was the most ludicrous yet, but THIS one tops it.

posted by PastorB on December 6, 2004 at 4:51 PM | link to this | reply