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IR, Jackie
Thank you both.
posted by
kooka_lives
on November 29, 2004 at 7:45 AM
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yeah kooka
stick around, you help to keep this place interesting
posted by
calmcantey75
on November 29, 2004 at 6:25 AM
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I am likewise impressed with your stamina, kooka
It's like watching an ideological tennis match with no end in sight. I'm with mysteria on this: you're doing great, keep up your argument for equitable agreement. I'll be dropping in more than it will seem as I, too, have lost my will to argue these points, but know that I'm in agreement with you.
posted by
InherentRights
on November 28, 2004 at 8:10 PM
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mysteria
Thank you
I am not really trying to prove anything. I am well aware that people are not going to change their views just because I write my posts. My main goal is to get people to think about their beliefs.
I understand the power of faith and I think it should be something people are aware of. I truly believe a large portion of those who claim to believe really have no idea about their faith.
I have been very tempted to just give up due to how many seem to wish to fight against the idea of any views that do not agree with theirs. It does get very stressful at times. But I will not allow them to think they have won. Very often they look for the smallest things to try and make ti look like they are getting to me and if I were to back down suddenly, there would be many cries of my defeat here with Christians claiming they have proven their point by forcing me back. I guess I am just too stubborn to let them get such a false idea of victory. funny thing is I do not feel I am competing for anything at all, while it seems that the Christians here feel this to be some kind of competition.
posted by
kooka_lives
on November 28, 2004 at 8:47 AM
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hey kooka
Thanks for being a champion of intelligence. I don't know how you can stand to argue with so many people that seem so filled with arrogance and nonsense. I gave up trying to prove what I felt is right along time ago. It was a very freeing *revelation* for me. I find much peace in it.
A lot of why am not more vocal is probably because I haven't much energy for much of anything anyway, so I just keep most of what I feel to myself. But I do appreciate those that try and shed some light.
I feel that most religions are the source of most human suffering. The day that people realize this will be a great one indeed. Unfortunately we won't live to see it. We will be relics by then, ancient relics feeding the force behind plate tectonics. lover, mysteria
posted by
mysteria
on November 28, 2004 at 8:36 AM
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Make2short
So do you see my point yet?
No one has solid proof of anything. Our belief are all based on the evidence we have found and how we see that evidence. My faith on non-belief is just as valid as any faith of belief. We have all been given the same amount of proof and just take it different ways.
I have never said the idea of faith in a higher power is a bad thing. My main problem is with organized religion and those who wish to enforce their views on others.
Yes some people do have life changing experiences when the 'Find God' and I have know some personally who needed that. I do not. My greatest life changing experience was the birth of my first son. Becoming a father changed me and made me feel complete. I would put that experience against any religious experience in the world, for I know that there could be nothing greater in life than to be a father. That is where my faith rests.
Asking me why I do not believe in God would be asking you and others who believe why they do believe in God. It really is two sides of the same coin. Trying to get me to show my proof that there is no God is just as effective as me trying to get the Christians to show me their proof that there is a God. It really all comes down to what you put your faith in.
In the end what matters most is that you be true to yourself and who you are.
posted by
kooka_lives
on November 27, 2004 at 6:48 PM
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Kooka
You aren't going to get solid proof. Uncertainty it part of our understanding of the cosmos. We weren't there when it began and there are no witnesses who were. All we have is evidence. Whether this is enough for your or not is up to you. There is doubt in everything about our existance. For me the evidence is in those whose lives have changed because of their encounter with a power greater than themselves. For me the Bible clarifies what I believe. But without a decision to believe in it, I would be unable to believe it.
posted by
Make2short
on November 27, 2004 at 1:17 PM
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Janes
I don't doubt that the stories of the Bible follow the history of the times. That is not a hard thing to do. A lot of fiction does that. A good writer who wishes to have his stories feel real writes them around the real events of their times. Mythology in general does that as well. They take real events and put their own stories having happened during those events. Just because parts of the Bible can be proven to have happened, does not prove the Bible to be fact.
All of the atheist I know are drug free, loyal to their partners, very much nonviolent and ar very giving. I think the big misunderstanding comes from the simple fact that we do not go around and preach our beliefs to everyone. The whole idea of prisoners being reformed through Christianity and not atheism only really works because the Atheist are going to help others out but not try to convert them, while the Christians are going to be converting the person while helping them out I find the while idea misleading because the people really do not convert to atheism because atheist do not really push the idea of converting people. If someone becomes an atheist while in prison then most likely they really had no faith to begin with and instead of really being converted they have instead just decided to openly admit they do not believe in God and muse that more as an excuse as to why they can act the way they do. In some ways it is not true atheism becomes it comes forma need to hate God and not follow God's laws, not from a true disbelief in God. And because of that they are more likely to commit crimes because they feel cheated by God or are trying to justify their lifestyles. A true atheist is not justifying anything through their nonbelief.
Atheism is not about going against God or any such nonsense. Being na atheist is not way to justify committing crimes or being a negative aspect to society. If those criminals were true atheist, then they would be reformed and see that they should be good because it is just what is best for all.
janes, I do not mind people pointing out various opposing views tome, so I am fine with you leaving such comments. However I find your post to be very insulting , but I am going to leave a comment there about that.
posted by
kooka_lives
on November 27, 2004 at 9:25 AM
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kooka
You are right that I do not know who I am, and because of that my faith needs to be as flexible as the week is long. I would hope that I am growing into the person I was designed to be, but I've a long way to go. Flexibility is a requirement of the young who change so quickly. It is optional in middle years depending on the individual, and is only a memory for most of the old, unless they worked at it all their lives.
posted by
pappy
on November 27, 2004 at 6:20 AM
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Kooka,
I just took an exerpt from my latest post called "Saint Atheist Hospital -- Atheism vs Christianity." Here's a sample of it. Not trying to increase my clicks, but just too damn tired to condense my thoughts into a lucid response. But regarding your blog, did you know that there's far more proof of the Bible's historicity by far than there is for the works of Plato? And yet we all accept the writings of Plato as being inerrant and having historical value. There is also a significant amount of circumstantial evidence in favor of the Bible -- if you look at all the archeological findings in Israel and throughout the Middle East. Many of the "stories" in the Bible have been at least partially verified by archeology. Anyway, here's what I wrote earlier today. . . about your religion vs mine.
"My dad has worked in the mental health system all of his adult life. He currently works part time in the California prison system as a social worker. One component of his job is to assess the psychiatric health of each new inmate admitted to the slammer where he works. He was telling me that he’s never, ever seen hard core violent, drug addicted prisoners who’ve been effectively rehabilitated by their life changing beliefs in atheism. However, he has seen these same hard core, violent, drug addicted inmates whose lives were dramatically changed when they came face to face with Jesus – who died to redeem them from sin and loves them unconditionally no matter what their deeds." (http://www.blogit.com/Blogs/Blog.aspx/JanesOpinion/)
Kooka, no matter how much proof we bloggers offer you that Christianity is valid, trustworthy and the most worthwhile religion in which to put your faith, it will all be a bunch of hot air and quite frankly a waste of time. Rather, it will take the persistance of the "hound of Heaven" to convict you of God's truth. God can do that; of this I have absolutely no doubt. Anyway, I could not resist posting a comment at this late hour. I will gladly add to it in the AM . . . although I do sometimes wonder why I bother.
posted by
JanesOpinion
on November 26, 2004 at 10:18 PM
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I took your challenge on
thanks for inspiring a post for me.
posted by
PastorB
on November 26, 2004 at 7:20 PM
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Im glad that you dont use the bad
things happen to people argument to justify your rejection of the existence of the Bible God. That argument is based on a intellectualy lazy presumption. Been trying to read up on your extensive body of work in your relgion blog so I can converse intelligently with you. Star Wars does in fact contain a fascinating religion and spirituality. I would be interested in reading your view of it.
posted by
calmcantey75
on November 26, 2004 at 6:56 PM
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pappy
That is one thing I am hoping to get across to some of the Christians who seem to think that my faith is so much more flexable then theirs. I can no more believe in their ideas of God than they can stop believeing in those ideas. They wish for me to change my beliefs with the amount of proof they provied, but if I provide the same amount of proof to them that their God is not real, they are saying it is not enough.
Faith is something that should be a strong part of who a person is. If your faith is flexable that says to me that you are not completely sure of who you are. I know who I am and I know that my faiht is not very flexable.
posted by
kooka_lives
on November 26, 2004 at 6:54 PM
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Jackie
I have never used the idea that bad things happen as my reason to not beleive in God. I have used that to point out various flaws I find in some of the ideas surrounding God, but they have never been part of the reason as to why I can not believe in God.
I do think there is something more than chance to the universe though. I believe the universe works very much like our bodies. I have written some post that show this idea. If we look at it that way we are as blood cells to the universe. If there is a God it is not all powerful, but more like the unconcious parts of the brain that regulate things and keep everything working the way it needs to to keep us alive. For although that part of our brian is powerful and is very important, it does make mistakes and there are areas that it has no power over. Also, it must follow certian rules. Viewing the idea of God in that fashion makes more sense to me. God as the reglating area of the brain of the universe would explain much and would fit into what we know of the universe.
I'll go and do you up a post in my Star Wars Blog about how the Force works as a religion. I find it to be a much more believable idea than Christianity. I like the idea of all things in the universe having a connnection, but the true power being not a single being, but the universe as a whole which is not seperate or higher than anything else, buts needs life to be in order for it to be.
posted by
kooka_lives
on November 26, 2004 at 6:48 PM
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Norseman
I have often said I could believe there is some kind of higher power that guides the universe in some way. But it is not the God of the Bible. It is not all-powerful or all-knowing. It does have a begining and an end. Also, even with the basic idea of the Big Bang, it does not have to be an accident. Is it an accident when a child is born? Is it an accident when the wind blows? No, those are just the workings of nature and they follow patterns that are just how things are due to the laws of nature and physics (Which just are, no one created them). The Big bang is nothing more than the universe doing what the universe does just as our bodies do as they do. Nature doing what nautre does is not an accidnet, but niether is there any will behind it.
posted by
kooka_lives
on November 26, 2004 at 6:34 PM
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kooka
I would say that you already believe in a lot of things that cannot be proved. Some of them might even be completely unexplainable, at least by today's science. You believe in the truth, that there is truth out there somewhere. You believe in love, you believe in security, and even when you know it doesn't really exist you are still able to go to sleep at night. You might even believe in ghosts, or esp, or ufo's, but it doesn't matter. When you say you cannot believe in god, and I believe you, you are really saying you don't believe in any of the versions of god that you have ever heard. I don't believe in any of those versions either. Whatever the truth is, it is not influenced by what any of us think; it already is, with or without our puny belief. I do believe there is a creator, but I know virtually nothing about it. My beliefs are not where my faith comes from. Faith is not a coat I can put on. Faith is the energy source that lights my life. It cannot be given, or proved, or even understood, only lived.
posted by
pappy
on November 26, 2004 at 4:34 PM
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Oh, you did say that. I must have missed it
thats what I forgot to add in my first comment. Me asking you to believe in God is the same as you asking me to forsake my beliefs and faith. There is nothing you can say to me that will ever convince me that there is no God. Because of my faith. There is nothing I can say to you that will convince you that there is a God. Jesus Christ would have to pay you a personal visit. That is not out of the realm of possibility, by the way. I would say I would pray for you, but I found that that is offensive to you, so I will not.Your will , my will, is in control of what we believe of course, because there many reasons to believe that God does not exist. Many voices of persuasion. Look at the injustice and horror of the world. An ocean of reasons not to believe God. In spite of that, I exercise my will to believe in God. The Christian God. So for me to change my will would not be weakness but strength, as would be with you.
Kooka I respect the strenghth of your beliefs. They are as strong if not stronger than Christians.
The only non Biblical idea of God I can think of right now is ' the Force' out of Star Wars, except the ' Force' would have awareness and personality and love. The Jedi are the Christians. But anyone can become a Jedi ( Christian), if they believe in Jesus ( the Force). I dont think anyone can become a Jedi in Star Wars though.
Remember the scence in Episode 2 when Anakin said: "I will be able to stop people from dying!" That made me think of the power that Christians actually have by virtue of Jesus Christ, as here Anakin lamented not having that power by virtue of the Force and being a Jedi. Its interesting to me how Star Wars echos biblical stuff.
You ask for proof outside of the Bible and faith: the problem with answering that question is I beleive you have relagated everything ( from reading your old posts) in the universe to chance. To the emergance of life to the formation of galaxies and its adherance to laws, so whatever is presented to you you would say it is not proof of Gods existence.
posted by
calmcantey75
on November 26, 2004 at 4:31 PM
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kooka...
Well for me the existance of God just makes sense. Think about it, all the intricacasies of the universe, the position of our planet in relation to the sun, I mean really everything in nature points to the presence of an intelligence behind it. Scientifically I have read reports that say to assume that the whole universe is merely a big accident or chain of circumstances and coincidences is much less likely. The old saying that there are no athiest if foxholes has a lot more truth to it than people think. I have felt the presence, I have seen him work in people lives...I am not offering all this as proof to you, these are just the reasons I believe in God. I respect your right not to completely. Besides, I would submit that God himself has provided you with the proof you need, you simply chose not to accept it. I don't know why people are hassling you about it though. You have made your choice, I know that me trying to pound my belief into you will have the opposite effect. I just accept you as a fellow human.
posted by
A_Norseman
on November 26, 2004 at 4:09 PM
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Jackie
I have straight out said that it would take the level of Jesus appearing before me and showing me that he is God.
Think of it this way, what proof would you need to believe that there is no God? Take that level of proof and put it in the other direction and you might understand what I believe. I deliberately believe there no God just as much as you deliberately believe there is God. Are you saying that your belief in God is weak enough that all you need do is change your will and you might not believe in God any more?
This challenge is not to make me believe, but to give me a Non-Biblical idea of what people believe God to be and what proof they have outside of the Bible and faith that there is God.
I am trying to get people to see that my beliefs are as strong as theirs and that unless they wish to claim that their faith is weak and easy to change, that they should not assume that mine is weak or easy to change.
posted by
kooka_lives
on November 26, 2004 at 4:05 PM
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What would it take for a committed athiest to believe in God?
Is this an attempt to boost your ratings? Maybe not. Because I have read many times that you CANNOT believe in God. What kind of proof are you seeking? If Jesus Christ appeared to you in the flesh and said " I am God Almighty" and did a few miracles would you believe Him? What would it take for you to beleive? Scientific and mathmatical proof? I dont think yhat would convince you either. Because you have decided God is fiction and myth. That is where your faith is. You have faith that God is a myth. Empirical evidence usually is not strong enough to shift faith. The only thing that is strong enough to move your faith somewhere else is your own WILL. People make a deleberate decision to believe something. Only you are in possion of that. Not God, not nature, not science. I am really not interested in converting you.Whatever you believe is fine with me because it is your responsibility. That is out of my hands and not my buisness. Not to sound uncaring, but its the truth.
I have no proof for you.
posted by
calmcantey75
on November 26, 2004 at 3:55 PM
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