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Matos
Just a note here, I am reading through your comments and mine, and you were the one who started to get insulting towards me. I made no insutling comments at all towards you and the farther into this we got the more insulting towards me you got.
Does not fit with what you were claiming on Uni's post at all.
posted by
kooka_lives
on November 30, 2004 at 3:18 PM
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Matos
By your logic the majority of America is not Christian then. They are some kind of highbred religion which claims to believe and worship Christ, btu are not good enough people for you to consider them Christians.
You said "You did know that most crimes are done by the uneducated class, right?" yet that would not fit in with the "dishonest business men and men who hold political office" who you are now claiming where who you were talking about in that comment. I am a little lost as to if you even know what you are saying from comment to comment here. You might try to read your own comments, instead of implying that I did not read them.
My friend who shoplifted seriously believed in God and Jesus. He just really did not understand what his beliefs were. I have known many like this. There are just as much a Christian as you are. Due to the simple fact that they did not find their spirituality on their own they did not understand it at all. Yes he did drugs, although I can not say as to if he was on anything at that time. He did sleep around and was very much involved in gangs. (A white guy, in case any one was going to try and put a racial spin on this). He believed but he had no clue or just was not willing to put the effort into it.
They are very credible examples. These are people I have known personally and seen what their beliefs are and what their lifestyles are. These are people who I have tried to debate religion with but have gotten very upset at just the idea that someone might question the existence of God. There have been several times where these people have been ready to strike at me for challenging the the idea of God. Just because the do not live up to your high ideals, does not for one moment mean they are not Christians. What you seem to wish to do is to take all those who might make your religion look bad and say 'they are not real Christians' when it fact they really do believe in God and Christ and all of that.
I am very puzzled as to what you find to be more substantial than actual physical proof of having known these people. To me such actual proof is much more important than figures and statistics ever can be.
I am very much aware that those people who do such actions most likely have some serious problems, and I will admit generally they are not very bright, although I have known a few who were intelligent but for some reason choose the wrong path.
For documented proof of such things we can look at organized crime families. Their is strong documentation there that those families are strong believes in God and Christ, yet they go around killing and committing crimes.
I will admit that Iraq in itself is off subject, yet Bush is a great example of a person who claims to be a Christian, but clearly does not have the Christian values that he claims to have.
posted by
kooka_lives
on November 24, 2004 at 12:11 PM
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Wow. You did read the rest of my post didn't you? I would hate to think you read the first paragraph and decided to beat me over the head with it. I also said there were many criminals who say they are Christians to hide in the Christian communities. These are dishonest business men and men who hold political office. If I needed to explain that to you then I'm sorry for doing so earlier.
As for your examples of friends who shoplift without knowing it's wrong or drug abusers, I'm surprised you would use them to prove your point. If a shoplifter steals and doesn't think it's wrong while still calling himself a die-hard Christian, then he isn't really a Christian. Geez kooka, this sounds like a Jeff Foxworthy joke. A Christian would look at the 10 commandments and know it was wrong. Was this so-called Christian a drug abuser as well? And as for the drug abusing Christian, you do know that drugs affect perception as well as the thinking process, right? In the courts of America, he would be called an uncreditable witness since being of questionable mind, he couldn't possibly know what he what talking about.
I do see where your ideas of Christians come from. You find the worse examples that aren't even creditable and throw them around as proof positive. If this is what you mean by doing research, maybe I was being too kind in saying that you do sound educated since I was hoping you bring to the table something more substantial. I will grant that you were probably upset and it affected you momentarily so take a deep breath and try again. I'm anxious to hear from you.
Oh and I'm not a Bush supporter since I can't support a man who honestly doesn't have a clue. Our soldiers shouldn't be in Iraq but that's a whole different story.
posted by
Matos
on November 24, 2004 at 9:56 AM
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Matos
First off not all crimes are committed by the uneducated, big business and politicians are often (Not always) very well educated and they commit many crimes. Second, a lot of these Christians I have known have truly believed in God. They had great faith that there was a God right as they go and shop life because they needed a snack (I honestly knew a guy who was telling me how much he wa getting into his faith on the same night he shoplifted a whole lot of stuff forma gas station, that he did not need even, and seemed to have no clue that it was wrong). A friend of mine who had an open marriage was a strong believer in God, he also did drugs.
When I say Christians I mean Christians. These are not people pretending to be Christians. They really do believe for whatever reason, yet are somehow unable to see that their actions are not agreeing with their beliefs.
Now I will agree the being educated generally seems to help people be able to live a more moral life, but not always. Just look at President Bush. he is educated, even if he is not the smartest person in the world, and he clearly has very low moral values. He also claims to be Christian, yet holds the average human life as being nothing and is more concerned with his own personal agenda than doing what is best for the country. This is not an unusual thing to see with Christians who are in places of power.
It is very wrong to say that it is only those who are poorly educated who commit the crimes and that they are only pretending to be Christians.
posted by
kooka_lives
on November 24, 2004 at 9:29 AM
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I think the point you are missing is that you believe that Christains are being hypocrites. If you speak to a handful of idiots and ask them why they go to church, then you're going to get an idiots answer. If you were to ask an educated person why they go to church to pray and attend services, they will tell you that they go, not because they are strict adherents, but because despite all their flaws, they try (the key word is try) to be better human beings. An educated person would tell you they are fully aware at how imperfect they are and that they strive towards following the example of what they believe Jesus to be. Since there are many ways people interpret Jesus, this would no doubt confuse anyone searching for an answer. I have argued with Christians, Buddists, Jews, Moslems and quite a few members of alternative religions and I have always done so with full knowledge that they were being emotional in their response. Perhaps you didn't know that emotional answers aren't always logical.
Oh yeah, you did know that Jesus did preach to the dregs of society, right? He preached to prostitutes, drunks and everybody no one wanted to preach to. It was these people who needed to hear what he had to say since the educated people of the time didn't want to soil themselves. It's the same way today. I know that many athiests have been well educated or have educated themselves to the point of rivaling anything a university could teach. How could they compare their lives to people who are uneducated and are committed to a life of crime? You did know that most crimes are done by the uneducated class, right? You also know that most corrupt people who claim to be Christians, do so to hide within a community they prey on, right? I'm assuming you know this since you do sound well read, so pardon me if your argument sounds wrong. If I'm wrong in thinking this, please correct me and let me know where and how I am wrong.
posted by
Matos
on November 24, 2004 at 9:10 AM
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Matos
I never said most or all Christians I have known are immoral, just that the most immoral people I have known have been Christians. They will go to church and admit a belief in God and then go and sleep around, steal, do drugs and show no respect what-so-ever for others and yet still defend the idea that they are Christian.
The point is not that all Christians are immoral, just that he most immoral people I have met in my life have been Christians and you would think that by claiming to believe something and then not even coming close to following those beliefs would make one even more immoral. if I ever meet an atheist who commits as many crimes as these Christians I am talking about, they would still be a level in which they are less immoral because they are not claiming to have a belief in something and not follow that. So far the worst atheist I have met is not even half as immoral s the worst Christians I have met.
posted by
kooka_lives
on November 24, 2004 at 8:35 AM
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Well as I said before, I've enjoyed the company of athiest because they were good people who were into philosophy. I'm sorry if you haven't found as many good Christians but I can assure you they're out there. Perhaps what you mean are "Die-hard Christians" who keep on spouting biblical quotes. I found that people with deep beliefs in God are usually private in their beliefs since it is also a personal thing. It's the loud mouths in parties or gatherings who usually make people of any religious denominations look bad. They are few but are somehow always heard.
posted by
Matos
on November 24, 2004 at 7:57 AM
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Matos
I agree with you about every group having Black Sheep. It is just a fact that I have not met any truly immoral atheist, although I am sure there are many out there. The most moral people I know are all atheist and the least moral people I have met in my life have all been Christians. That is a simple fact. Now I do know better than to judge a whole group by the handful of people I now, but I think it does say something about belief in general there. And I never said all those who believe have poor morals, for I have a known many good people who believe. But I can honestly say that the best people I have known in my life have been Atheists.
And just a side note about antichrists, they can not be atheist. An antichrist has to believe in God and Christ to be against them. An Antichrist is legitimately a dark Christian.
posted by
kooka_lives
on November 24, 2004 at 7:05 AM
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I've known a few athiests in my life and known them to be carefree, funny and somewhat laid back in their interpretations of the written law of man. In this respect, they are just like any Christian, Moslem, Jew, Shaman, etc I have known. Morality starts at home, not in any book, scripture, scroll or casting of bones. It's wanting to become better people that leads us to religion or philosophy. I know that there are many people who are narrow sighted, only seeing what they believe to be right. They will argue that their way is the way. I believe the word for them are fanatics. But to be fair, I have met athiests who have low morals and do not seek to become better people. They are called Anarchists. It would seem that every group or organizations has it's black sheep. Maybe you should keep that in mind instead of singling out religious adherents.
posted by
Matos
on November 24, 2004 at 6:36 AM
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jackie
Thank you, I am sure things will work out. They always do. Life can not always go smooth. I just wish that the rough spots could have come a few at a time instead of all at once this year. And the years is not over. It is long story, but this year has been a really rough year for my family and there still appears to be a few more rough spots ahead for us before the year is done.
posted by
kooka_lives
on November 22, 2004 at 8:47 PM
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the answer to your question here
and this is from a christian, is a most definate no. hope things work out for you
posted by
calmcantey75
on November 22, 2004 at 8:38 PM
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and pappy
I have often talked about what I hope for in my past posts. My main goals are to make the world a better place. I find that to be hard to do when so many people take comfort in ideas that I believe are hurting the world around us and the sooner we grow beyond the need to follow outdated mythology and through such growth are able to over come many of the failings that are holding us back from our true potential, there will be hope for a better future.
posted by
kooka_lives
on November 22, 2004 at 8:38 PM
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pappy
I thank you for reading through my past post. I just wish you could have understood them.
I am so very sorry that you are clueless as to what I am writing about. It has nothing to do with any kind of grudge. I also know for a fact that with-in those posts I have written posts that even a Christians would have to admit is uplifting and positive, although I feel all of my post have a worth wild message to them if you decided to not allow yourself to be blind to what I am saying.
I will admit that at times I get direct and in your face, but some of that has to do with replying to Christians who straight out had insulting me in various ways. Normally my most blunt posts came after a Christian had basically told me I was evil or stupid or 'mildly retarded' or some other such nonsense. And I have had various Christians here call me many names and insult every aspect of my beliefs in the most childish of ways. Most of the time however I try to write posts that show different possibilities and get people to think, even if they disagree with what I am saying.
posted by
kooka_lives
on November 22, 2004 at 8:34 PM
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kooka
I have just gone back to your first post of 18 Oct 03. Would it be too personal of me to ask what could cause you to carry such a heavy grudge for so long? It must be 250 posts raging against what has given so many so much comfort for so long. We all die in the end, but we don't need to spend our lives in doubt and misery. What do you hope for?
posted by
pappy
on November 22, 2004 at 5:46 PM
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