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Thank you, Rev,
I am trying to work out for myself the concepts of Christianity, pat answers don't work for me, either.
In reference to the Matthew quote, if you look at the whole context, entitled "Sheep and Goats" in the New International Version, verses 31-46 refer to the division of the "righteous" sheep who performed all these actions: clothing, feeding, caring for prisoners and invalids from those who didn't.
Where the verse reads: "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (28: 41). It seems pretty specific that he is referring to people.
posted by
Blanche.
on November 13, 2004 at 1:29 PM
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mary, roofpig
That is what I like to see here. Two people who are each looking stuff up and learning from each other. I so wish more people could treat debate this way, instead of getting emotional about it all.
One thing I will point out about your quote Mary, is that is says that Hell is for the Devil and his angles. Now that seems to suggest that us humans won't got o Hell. Although is still says something about God. God will not forgive Satan and his angles, even though they are as much God's children as we are. As far as I can figure the most unforgivable sin is to challenge God and think you can do better or know better. That alone points to a high level of ego. I myself hope that my sons are able to out do me on every level and be better than I am, yet it seems God does not wish that of his children. He wishes to keep his children as being beneath him and never even close to his equal. Always his lessers his children shall be.
posted by
kooka_lives
on November 13, 2004 at 1:19 PM
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Ditto, Roofpig
posted by
Blanche.
on November 13, 2004 at 11:30 AM
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mary - I won't claim to be an expert by any means, I'm still researching the subject. I find it very fascinating. Yeah, I haven't learned anything about the fire and angels quote, so you may have me on that one. :-)
posted by
roofpig
on November 13, 2004 at 11:24 AM
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Roofpig,
I'm still studying that. I've seen that reference many times in Psalms and in the footnotes, but in the Matthew reference is pretty specific and descriptive as to "the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" so I dont' think that's the whole point. By the way, I'm listening to Nine Inch Nails 2000 concert tour, somehow I just got in the mood.
posted by
Blanche.
on November 13, 2004 at 11:18 AM
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:::breaks out the Van Halen:::
Runnin' with the devil!!!
posted by
roofpig
on November 13, 2004 at 11:15 AM
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Who runs hell? Do you mean who runs IN hell? Some walk in hell, some
stand still in hell. WE are the boss.
posted by
Kelli
on November 13, 2004 at 11:13 AM
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mary, a lot of the references of "hell" in the Old Testament are actually translations of the word "Sheol," which means "place of the dead." It doesn't refer to heaven or hell in the sense that we know, just a place of death. In the New testament, the translation refers - in most places, not all - to "the grave" and not a place of eternal suffering.
posted by
roofpig
on November 13, 2004 at 11:10 AM
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What the hell?
I just read your post and the previous one and comments on the nature and origin of the concept of Hell in Judaism and Christianity. In Strong's Biblical Concordance, there are 54 listings under the word "Hell" and their chapter and verse, 31 in the Old Testament and 23 in the New, so it isn't an undocumented concept or one even that originated with Christianity, but predates it.
"Then he will say to those on his left, "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me. I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me. " Matthew 25: 41-43.
posted by
Blanche.
on November 13, 2004 at 11:07 AM
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jackie o, from what I've learned (although I could be wrong), there is only one actual reference to angels being cast out of heaven, and that's in Revelation. The verse says something to the effect of angels being cast into the earth. That's all. If there is another place in the bible that talks about angels and hell, please let me know because I'm very interested.
posted by
roofpig
on November 13, 2004 at 10:26 AM
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No, it's very simple, really.
Heaven is where you think you are when you make others happy and you get rewarded for being good.
Hell is where you know you are when you've been bad and made others unhappy.
That is why it's so important for men to know what women want. In other words, don't f*** a female, because if she doesn't hand you a detailed invoice for payment of services as a self-employed whore, you'd by gosh better love her and marry her. Women made unhappy send men who are careless to Hell. It's all payback.
The only way out of Hell is to pick yourself up by your own bootstraps. Because in Hell, everybody is selfish.
posted by
TARZANA
on November 13, 2004 at 10:23 AM
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kooka and step dad
I don't think I believe in atheism, but I'm not sure about agnostics. But seriously, I think humans are hard-wired for searching for some truth that exists outside themselves. With our ability to think in symbols and construct realities based on conjecture it's only natural to wonder if there could be life larger than what we know. It's a leap of faith to take a stand that there is a god, but it is also a leap of faith to take a stand that there is not. The truth does not need us; there either is, or there is not and there is not much one person can do for another in taking the decision.
posted by
pappy
on November 13, 2004 at 6:56 AM
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Heh. You should try harder to bring him into the fray
but he probably has better things to do with his time, unlike the rest of us ( ha ha)
but it would be interesting to hear his arguments
posted by
calmcantey75
on November 12, 2004 at 9:18 PM
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jackie
My father, Westwend here on blogit, is a Christian. My step-father is an atheist and even though I think he would do well here on Blogit, he is not a member.
posted by
kooka_lives
on November 12, 2004 at 9:12 PM
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Kooka, I thought your step father was a Christian?
posted by
calmcantey75
on November 12, 2004 at 9:07 PM
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roof thats a good question
about hell seemingly springing up later on in the Bible. I am going to prepare a post that will hopefully answer your questions. Im currently working on another research project for school but I will somehow find time to do it.
posted by
calmcantey75
on November 12, 2004 at 9:05 PM
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And pappy
It was very interesting when my step-father and I started to have conversations about religion. I had become an atheist without really knowing it until my good friend was born again and start to try and get me to 'find God'. Suddenly I realized I was an atheist. Well the debates me and my friend were having ended up being over heard by my step-father. Suddenly I was having conversations with him about religion and realized he was an atheist as well. He had never tried to force those views on me, and since my mother is not an atheist, although she really is not religious she still believes in God, I came to fine my atheism all on my won. In fact my step-father and I do not agree on all of our views on faith, but we do have some very interesting conversations that have shaped some of my view.
posted by
kooka_lives
on November 12, 2004 at 9:03 PM
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Excellent
posted by
calmcantey75
on November 12, 2004 at 9:00 PM
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roofpig
I am very interested to see what answers the Christians here come up with for that one.
posted by
kooka_lives
on November 12, 2004 at 8:57 PM
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jackie, pappy
Don't know if I'll have time tommorow, but I have already planned out a post to talk about this 'choice' thing so many seem to claim we have.
posted by
kooka_lives
on November 12, 2004 at 8:57 PM
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Hell was created for the devil and his angels
it was not created for man at all. man followed satan there by his own choice. And no person has to go there. God does not send anyone there, they go by choice. Thats really all the bible says about hell, other than the physical descriptons.
posted by
calmcantey75
on November 12, 2004 at 6:50 PM
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so kooka
If you're playing devil's advocate, just who is your step-father? Just kidding. I'm afraid hell is the justice that we all so richly deserve, but without the mercy that has been offered to anyone who would have it.
posted by
pappy
on November 12, 2004 at 5:17 PM
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Kooka, I'm still waiting for a Christian to explain to me where hell came from. I've researched the subject for a while, so I have my own answers, but I want someone to tell what the deal is.
It is my understand that the Jews don't believe in hell. Now, did the Jews not come before the Christians? Did God forget to tell them about hell or did it just spring into existence when Jesus was born? No one will give me an answer on the subject.
posted by
roofpig
on November 12, 2004 at 5:09 PM
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