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You don't know what is in the heart of the believer, Kooka. Therefore, it's you that is blind.
posted by
Gheeghee
on May 1, 2004 at 2:01 PM
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YES THERE IS SIN IN THE PASSAGE
but it's only blasphemy that's unforgivable -- check my blog - TheChrist Within Us for the whole explanation.
Also, in light of the other three quoted passages, the perception of an unforgivable sin in very much in conflict with the plain statements that all will be saved. So we have to look at this passage differently.
and the word for forgiveness too.
posted by
Xeno-x
on May 1, 2004 at 8:24 AM
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just one (ha) more thing (ha) :-)
our Matthew passage --
Yeshua was responding to Pharisees who were saying that what he did was through Beelzebub -- rather slanderous, don't you think? -- Using that as an example, I don't see anything that Kooka has said or done that could be construed as the "unforgivable sin".
Another thing, I don't see the word "sin" anywhere in this passage -- only that such slander is unforgiveable.
posted by
Xeno-x
on April 30, 2004 at 4:48 PM
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Gheeghee
Yes, I know I am unbelievable, thank you.
Anyway, as I have often said here the Christians who keep defending these ideas are blind. They come back time and time again because they can not admit that there might be flaws in their belief system. They are every scared of that. They have put so much of themselves into their beliefs that if they were ever to really read what I have to say it would ruin their world. That is why you and others keep coming back here.
I also read the full comment before I make any reply. Just because you wish to only see what you want ot see in my replies is not because of me, but because of your own blindness. You just will not see things any other way than the way you have been taught.
The salvation you are saying I am not wanting is nothing. It is a man made idea that seems to help some people feel better about themselves. I do not need any such things to make me feel good about my life or myself. To me you are saying that because I am my own person I have committed the unforgivable sin and that just makes no sense. Id o not look to others for my happiness or my truth. I am whole person completely aware of who I ma and what I want in life. I have a strong set of morals that I follow and I am considered by those who know me to be a good person. I am not worried about salvation because I do not need it.
posted by
kooka_lives
on April 30, 2004 at 3:44 PM
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shawn
If everything you say is true, then God does not treat a single person on Earth like I would ever treat my sons. I love them to much to be the cruel to them. God would make one horrible father if he were real.
posted by
kooka_lives
on April 30, 2004 at 3:34 PM
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Kooka
Deuteronomy 8:5
know then in your heart that as a man disciplines his son, so the Lord your God disciplines you.
posted by
telemachus
on April 30, 2004 at 1:16 PM
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everybody's talkin about it
Matthew 12:31 (KJV) "Wherefore I say unto you, all manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men, but the blasphemy (against) the (Holy) Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men." words in parentheses are in italics in the KJV, meaning that they were not in the original, but were inserted by the translators.
BLASPHEMY -- Strong's No. 988 "vilification (espec. against God): -- blasphemy, evil speaking, railing. -- it's from 989 which is from 984 which means "to hinder, i.e. (by impl.) to injure:-- hurt.
then following this in the next verse -- explanation of "speaks against" -- sounds like this pertains to certain type of speech.
FORGIVEN: Strong's No. 863 - " an intense form of (... to go); to send forth, in various applications (as follow):--cry, forgive, forsake, lay aside, leave, let (alone, be go, have), omit, put (send) away, remit, suffer, yield up.
So are we talking about forgiveness of sins, or "setting aside" and forgetting it?
Are we talking about the Third Person of the Trinity? Or are we talking about pneuma, spirit, state of mind?
King James translators put a "spin" on it from their paradigm. Why don't we discuss this from our own several paradigms.
I don't see any consigning to Hell, here, just forgetting -- and in response to Pharisees misrepresenting Yeshua's miracles.
posted by
Xeno-x
on April 30, 2004 at 12:47 PM
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huh?
I have a heritage here.
Part of my thinking comes from rural Southwest Iowa turn of the Century (19-20th) thinking.
It was my Dad's uncle. My Dad was born in 1907 so this Great Uncle of mine must have been born around 1880.
He passed several sayings on to my Dad, who in turn passed them on to me.
One was "There are two things you don't argue, and that's politics and religion." well -- here we are, arguing politics and religion. At least we aren't face to face -- we'd be in each other's face for sure.
The other thing he passed on to my Dad who in turn passed it on to me is: "You can prove anything by the Bible."
The thousands of Christian denominations and sects seem to prove that out. For every statement of Christian belief, there are at least a dozen sects or denominations that belief entirely differently, and they all say the have scripture to back them up.
And I can quote scripture to back my statements up.
posted by
Xeno-x
on April 30, 2004 at 12:18 PM
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And furthermore, Christians care about what Christ's take is on His own teachings. They're pretty clear.
posted by
Gheeghee
on April 30, 2004 at 12:09 PM
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Maybe so, but the teaching of Salvation belonging to everyone who wants it is taught by Christ. Read the gospels, it's there.
posted by
Gheeghee
on April 30, 2004 at 12:07 PM
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medieval
a lot of this stuff has its origins in the medieval church where, just like the feudal monarchies of the time, certain concepts were concocted to keep the faithful in line.
Since Luther and the Reformation, and particularly in this informed age (I still wonder how so many people can remain uninformed and retain archaic views) there are fewer and fewer people able to be "kept in line" -- even in what is affectionately called by some of your commentators, "The Church", where more of the flock increasingly question the formerly ironclad doctrines.
archaic and useless religious beliefs are possessions just as much as a new car and jewelry and a fine house. My take on Yeshua's teachings is that these things must be let go of before a person can experience the true spiritual realms (Kingdom of Heaven).
posted by
Xeno-x
on April 30, 2004 at 11:57 AM
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If God didn't care about everyone's salvation, do you think that any one of his children, the Christians that faithfully post comments to your blog hoping that you will one day see, would bother? If you really read my comment, and not just skimmed it for key words, that point would have stuck out. I can forgive you all I want, but if you don't want me to, then what can I do? NOTHING. That is what "unforgiveable sin" is. This concept is taught in nearly every Christian church. Salvation is there for everyone that wants it.
But you don't want it, Kooka.
posted by
Gheeghee
on April 30, 2004 at 11:03 AM
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You are unbelieveable.
posted by
Gheeghee
on April 30, 2004 at 10:50 AM
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