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Save people?

That's what the Christians say.

People who are tormented by thoughts of Hell are dwelling on the wrong thing. And it's bogus when Christians say "I've accepted Jesus as my Savior, so I'm saved. One is despair;the other, pride.

It's like this: If you're trying to rid yourself of an addiction you don't wallow in your unhappiness about being an addict. You focus on filling the void with positive things. Dwelling on your unhappiness is likely to bump you of the wagon, so to speak.

Christ said "Fear not, for I am with you"

posted by AnCatubh on May 13, 2004 at 3:04 AM | link to this | reply

maybe we wanna save people from the fear

posted by Xeno-x on May 12, 2004 at 2:36 PM | link to this | reply

westwend-you better lay off that wacky tobaccky

and kooka, you could use some. Whaadya care if people think you're going to hell (which I don't)? It's all a crock, remember?

posted by AnCatubh on May 11, 2004 at 12:26 AM | link to this | reply

as if anyone will read this by now

the guy -- Irish are pretty good aren't they?
Irish heritage is to take up opposition to the comfortable.
I see the joke, Kooka.
the guy's saying what every Christian says -- I'm going to Heaven and you aren't -- nyah, nyah.

Well I AM.

the stupid Christians -- I don't know where they're going.
They probably don't either.

posted by Xeno-x on May 10, 2004 at 4:30 PM | link to this | reply

amdg

You find that to be humorous?
It was stupid and insulting.
I have no clue as to what the writer was thinking.
I have tried to read it as a joke and it does not work.
Sounds to me like a drunk Christian trying to make fun of atheists, but since he lacks any real sense of humor he falls short of anything funny.

posted by kooka_lives on May 7, 2004 at 8:19 PM | link to this | reply

lighten up, there, kooka

Brendan Behan was an Irish author, humorist and consumate drunk. It was a little bit of silly humor, nothing more. I believe he is making fun of sanctimonious asses. I know that is your point.

posted by AnCatubh on May 6, 2004 at 9:23 PM | link to this | reply

amdg

Wow, does that one even prove my point about how some people really want there to be a hell. It is so much the Christian attitude. You people really like the whole idea of Hell. The poem makes it sounds like the writer is bragging about how us non-believers are going to Hell, while he is special and will not. A sad way to look a the world.

posted by kooka_lives on May 4, 2004 at 10:32 AM | link to this | reply

forgot another thing-

"The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but
not for
me"

-Brendan Behan

posted by AnCatubh on May 3, 2004 at 9:45 PM | link to this | reply

forgot one thing

I said we can't understand things AS He understands. We can certainly understand many things about him.

posted by AnCatubh on May 3, 2004 at 1:45 AM | link to this | reply

kooka-it's a matter of semantics-read westwend below

God wills us to exist means we flow from his existence. Sorry, I'm assuming things and using terms that an atheist wouldn't believe in. And I don't mean to suggest you're not a caring person. I have no reason think that's true.

I don't believe in God to give my life meaning. The questions'How did the universe come to be, Why are we here?' are philosophical ones, not theological and my own journey to God began with those question. I came to accept the Aristotelian idea of the Unmoved Mover. From there, I began to see in Nature the evidence of an awesome design engineer.

To me, the greatest evidence of God is humanity itself. Through many people I've known I learned firsthand the meaning of a phrase an old Jesuit told me a long time ago: God works all things toward the good and I've endured tragedy, put my grief in his hands and seen wonderful things come from it. I don't think things like that can be explained in purely secular terms.

posted by AnCatubh on May 3, 2004 at 1:43 AM | link to this | reply

amdg

I have never heard his voice, because he is not there to talk to me. And I have a lot of heart. I am a very caring person. Just because I do not believe in God does not mean I do not have a heart.

Those who hear God want to hear something, anything, in order to give their lives meaning. My life already has meaning so I am not trying to hear things which are not there

"God didn't want us to exist, he willed us to exist"
What the hell does that mean? It makes no sense. If he willed us to exist, then that would mean he wanted us to exist. Other wise why would he will it if he didn't want is?

You try to say we can not understand God. Okay, then why even have religion to begin with then? All religion really is, is a group effort to try and understand God. By your logic most of the Bible is useless and should not be read because it tries to explain God to us mere mortals. All that we need are Gods laws then. The rest is just pointless junk that is obviously flawed and useless.

posted by kooka_lives on May 2, 2004 at 8:52 AM | link to this | reply

this is westwend

God is not a male anthropormorphic figure that we can mold to our own beliefs.

God is YHVH -- meaning Existence -- all that exists, has existed, will exist, all matter, antimatter, energy, laws of physics, thoughts, words, deeds -- all good and all evil.

Check out the introduction to the Gospel of John "without him (it) nothing exists."

We live, move and have our being literally in this YHVH, this Existence.

YHVH evolves and progresses; so does each and every one of us.

evolution happens when change occurs in response to the environment -- that which is more fit to exist within the environment does.

evolution of thought is the same -- to reach Spiritual REalms, we must repent -- change our way of thinking. This is not just one time, it is continual. They who are chained to unconstructive ways of thinking cannot enter Spiritual Realms.

posted by Xeno-x on May 2, 2004 at 6:23 AM | link to this | reply

God doesn't need excuses

I'm trying to explain what God is and what he isn't. That's not possible with someone who doesn't believe he exists. God didn't want us to exist, he willed us to exist. We are an extension of The Good-all created things are and they flow from his existence.

And as for never rejecting Him, "If today you hear his voice, harden not your hearts" All brain no heart, kooka. Try accepting that we weren't made to understand as He does.
Pax

posted by AnCatubh on May 1, 2004 at 2:26 PM | link to this | reply

IT'S AS PLAIN AS THE NOSE ON MY FACE -- ALL WILL BE SAVED!!!!!!

All Bible passages are from the King James Version (KJV)(Authorized)

I Timothy 4:10 “For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

I Timothy 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

I Corinthians 3:12-16 “Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; every man’s work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

CHECK OUT THE FIRST SCRIPTURE --those who believe are made a special case, but not an exclusive one.

I've mentioned the second one before -- and Hell-believing Christians have tried to explain around that.

Okay, class, let's go over this one more time:

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 2309
Original Word Word Origin
qevlw apparently strengthened from the alternate form of (138)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Thelo 3:44,318
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
thel'-o Verb
Definition

1. to will, have in mind, intend
1. to be resolved or determined, to purpose
2. to desire, to wish
3. to love
1. to like to do a thing, be fond of doing
4. to take delight in, have pleasure

What if we say, "God is determined that all men be saved."?

And the First Corinthians passage shows how a person is saved -- the fire all of you talk about is intended to test a person's "work", yet the person passes through it and is saved.

We have a choice here -- either believe in the best of the human spirit
or believe in the worst.
Believe in the best and we believe God saves all.
believe in the worst and we consign people to Hell.
If the latter, we then have to ask, what criteria are used? Is it Dante's, is it the Catholic Church's, the Baptist Church's, Disciples of Christ, United Methodist, Episcopal Church, Unitarian, Assemblies of God, Jehovah's Witnesses, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Reformed Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, African Methododist Episcopal, Church of God, Presbyterian Church, Eastern Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, or whose?

posted by Xeno-x on May 1, 2004 at 8:43 AM | link to this | reply

amdg

That makes no sense at all then. If God does not want then why are we here? If God does not punish then why did he destroy so much in he old Testament? And why is there a Hell? No this all makes no sense at all. You are just trying to give God excuses.

"He did not make us to put us through the test and if we don't pass, we burn for eternity. Hell is a result of knowingly rejecting him."

I am not knowingly rejecting him, because I know he is not real. To knowingly reject something you must know it to be real and then reject it. You see I know there is no God. WHy? Because every time I have tried to find God I see that it is a pointless activity. Every time I have looked in to the idea of God I see that it is obviously a man made idea. I am not rejecting him because I have never accepted him.

posted by kooka_lives on May 1, 2004 at 7:12 AM | link to this | reply

God is not the Great Santini

If he worked that way , yes, he'd be a real jerk. But you are claiming he operates in a way that I don't think he does. Christians believe he has revealed himself to all, for all.He did not make us to put us through the test and if we don't pass, we burn for eternity. Hell is a result of knowingly rejecting him.

Here's an analogy: When you stand next to fire you see it's light and feel it's warmth. If you walk away you eventually won't see it's light and share in it's warmth. So it is with God. He is not changed by us . What we do with our free will determines whether we receive benefit. Then there is the whole mystery of his Love which like a fire suddenly growing larger and warmer and drawing us back.

Interestingly, you seem to have the same ideas about God that many Christians do. God doesn't want us to turn away from him. And he isn't standing there like an irate father. Strictly speaking, he doesn't want,period. To want implies a lack of something and God is the essence of perfection, if you will. .He doesn't want anything. As the Supreme Good he draws all good unto himself. He bestows grace even where things seem bleak or hopeless."For behold I make all things new".

posted by AnCatubh on May 1, 2004 at 1:20 AM | link to this | reply

amgd

Are you a parent?
If you are, would you do the kind of things God does to teach your Children?
If they will not listen to you, will you drown them?
If they decided to not show you respect will you throw them in a lake of fire?
Will you play mind games with them in order to see if they respect you or not?
Will you tell them to not go around and break the laws, then go and say well in this case you can kill a person because I say it is okay because I did not like what that person did?
If you did such things would have a very messed up a child, if he survived the drowning and the lake of fire of course. But even if you were to just threaten your child with such acts, wouldn't that child be scared of everything and not be healthy mentally?
A good, loving parent is not going to follow the examples of God if they wish to have mentally healthy children. Going off of this logic it only fits that God himself is not a good parent.

posted by kooka_lives on April 30, 2004 at 8:10 PM | link to this | reply

westwend

That is something I have talked about in the past. Several Christians here get offended by certain groups which they claim are not Christians, yet those groups claim to be. The only thing needed for a group to call themselves Christian is for them to believe in and worship Christ. It does not matter on bit how they do this, they are still Christians.

posted by kooka_lives on April 30, 2004 at 8:00 PM | link to this | reply

amdg -- then which ones

ok so which Christian groups are not Christian.

Yet they believe they are.

You believe you are.

I'm sure there are those who don't believe you are.
What are the criteria for being Christian?

Why don't some Christian groups meet them?

posted by Xeno-x on April 30, 2004 at 7:34 PM | link to this | reply

kooka- I absolutely see God as more than a loving parent

He is Love itself-all human forms of it are not even close.

The devil exists as the devil because he chose to not serve. We also have that choice. OK, remove the devil. We still have our free will.

As for the fact trail that led you to know He doesn't exist, I'd like to see it. Incidentally, Aristotle arrived at the conclusion that a Creator exists, without faith.

Accepting God and his unique plan for you isn't going to happen without the earnest desire to find the truth."Let those with ears hear".

posted by AnCatubh on April 30, 2004 at 5:52 PM | link to this | reply

westwend-yeah, a lot of them.

a Christian has to believe in the divinty of Christ which wipes out a lot loony groups who claim to be Christian. He has to accept the Bible as the Word of God. That's just for starters.

posted by AnCatubh on April 30, 2004 at 5:30 PM | link to this | reply

cantey

I DO NOT HATE.

I have never, nor will I ever form such ideas towards a group of people. I know many Christians, and for the most part the are good people. Not all though. I know some Christians who I would not trust one inch, but I do not hate them. No two are a like you see. Each one has their own take on things. One of these days when you go and read what I write, you might get a better understanding of how I really feel. it seems like just because I say something about you that obviously has a ring of truth to it, you figure I am attacking all Christians and have some great hatred for them. Go back and find my posts on how Christians wish to be seen as victims when they have not right to even think such things, because that is what you are doing here.

My point was that you like many other Christians will find all kinds of things in the Bible to prove whatever it is you wish to prove even when it is very obvious that the passage has nothing to do with what you claim it does. So why can you not go and do the same with the idea of Hell? I figure it is because you really want there to be a Hell, otherwise you would find all kinds of verses that point out that the idea of Hell is just figurative an not to be taken seriously. You, like may other pick through and go with what you really want to follow when it comes to the Bible.

I bet if I were to read the whole Bible and really study it, I could find something that I could read as saying a person should not be on the internet. The Bible is what you want it to be. It will say whatever you want it to say. This is how it is used to control people. Since you so badly want the Bible to say that there is a Hell, then it is obvious that you want there to be a Hell.

posted by kooka_lives on April 30, 2004 at 5:27 PM | link to this | reply

about Christians

considering that there are thousands of Christian sects and denominations and that there are also innumerable shades of belief (sort of like a spectrum, where you can find almost an infinity of colors), does it seem fair if I ask:

Do we need to define any particular trunk of Christian thought when we talk about Christianity and Christians?

When we do that, will we then exclude other Christians?

posted by Xeno-x on April 30, 2004 at 5:20 PM | link to this | reply

Revelation, Cantey

Is Revelation all literal
or is Revelation all metaphort
or is it a mix
and can you point out to me, if it is a mix, what is literal and what is metaphor.

posted by Xeno-x on April 30, 2004 at 5:16 PM | link to this | reply

Hey thats not nice!

what dont you just go ahead and called me a blithering idiot. It is not my desire in any shape or form to see a human being be tortured for eternity. How disgustingly insulting. You really hate Christians dont you. I can literally feel the smoking, hateful contempt as I read your words. Its sad. Is sad because you hate people. Christians are people. I have been around here long enough to see that you really hate Christians but you dont see it as a bad thing to hate them or you dont classify it as hate. I do not hate atheists or anybody, neither do I now or ever have had contempt for any people because of their beliefs. But you do. You are somwhow justified or given a free pass to hate because YOU believe they ( Christians)are blind and dangerous and because YOU cant see God. Its almost as if you believe Christians carry some disease. You are Nietzchean in you beliefs. This 'will to power' thing. This 'people who believe in God are weak' thing is evident in your thinking. The christians are weak, insideous vermin doctrine is lurking behind your lofty, atheist pedestel. We know were this thinking leads. Down the path that you claim Christianity takes us. All it would take is for you to posses an( or several) acute mental instabilities, which you do not have, to cause you to be no differnt than..........nevermind.

posted by cantey on April 30, 2004 at 4:25 PM | link to this | reply

amdg

'hell is not a punishment. It is a consequence. It is a result of our actions.'

Ah, another way to try and defend God's egotistical actions. Try and make it sound like it is the individuals fault that he does not believe. Yet from what I understand it is suppose to be the Devil's work that makes one like myself not believe. If that is the case, then God is not doing his part to fight off the Devil and make me believe, at which point it is God who is to blame. In fact we can run around in circles over this logic all day long. If we are to believe the Bible then God is going to punish us for not being strong enough to resist the Devil, even though he could go a head and remove the Devil's influence with not even a thought if he really wanted to try and save us all.

Like I have said before, I know there is no God. This is not something that I was taught by anyone. I looked at all the facts one day and saw this truth for myself. Right now for me to say I believe would be a 100% lie. I just do not. I am being honest to myself and others. If this is the Devil's work, then God should get off his lazy butt and do something real to make me believe, but he won't. Instead I have to listen to all of you tell me I am wrong and am going to be damned because I have too much integrity to lie to myself like that. It would be like punishing a child when the child was misinformed and so what he did was not because he wanted to do something wrong, but because it was a mistake and the child really meant well by doing it. A good parent would know that the child is going to feel bad enough when he/she is told it was a bad thing to do and therefore go easy on the kid in order ot make the child understand that his/her heart was in the right place. If I die and there is God ready to judge me, I will apologize for this misunderstanding and point out to him why I believed what I believed. If his has even the spark of being a good parent, he will understand and not make me face such unjust consequences when my heart was in the right place.

I guess you just do not see God as a good parent or a loving creator.

posted by kooka_lives on April 30, 2004 at 4:03 PM | link to this | reply

cantey

Then why do you seem to want there to be a Hell so badly?
You can go and find all kinds of passages in the Bible to prove things that they really have nothing to do with (I think you were the one who found some really off passage that you claimed was talking about oil in the rocks and said it was talking about gasoline, when if you read that passage and think for just one moment that makes no sense at all), yet you can not go and find something that shows Hell to be only figurative?

It is fairly obvious to me that you want there to be a Hell. Mostly so you can point your fingers at people like me and be able to say 'I told you so, but you just wouldn't listen', because that alone will be what will make a person like you happy for all eternity.

posted by kooka_lives on April 30, 2004 at 3:49 PM | link to this | reply

Westwend hell is an unpleasant topic

nevertheless it is not my theory or idea or desire, it is scripture. your message is diluted and dangerous in light of scripture. It would be great if what you beleive is true but in light of the word of God it cannot be. And it would be irresponsible of me and other Christians not to correct yor false doctrine for he protection of people looking for the truth and in a possition to be misled:

If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, ¹⁰ he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. ¹¹ And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

yes, this points to the truth of the unending eterity of Hell. There is no second chance. It is final. Call me a sicko, a nut, a fundamentalist whatever. The Bible says what it says.

Period

posted by cantey on April 30, 2004 at 1:08 PM | link to this | reply

ain't there

The Hell you guys describe is not in the Bible.
Period.

posted by Xeno-x on April 30, 2004 at 12:24 PM | link to this | reply

AMDG

Hell is this life. It is purgatory. God is merciful. God will work with the most recalcitrant individual for however many lives it takes until that individual is finally where that individual should be.

You gotta get Danta out your mind.

posted by Xeno-x on April 30, 2004 at 12:23 PM | link to this | reply

oh, yeah, forgot something...

We can not comprehend fully the mystery of God as Justice and Mercy. Human understanding of these concepts is limited. I think God's justice is more merciful than man's pitiful notion of mercy.

posted by AnCatubh on April 30, 2004 at 11:08 AM | link to this | reply

school is hell-hell is not school

Hell has no way out. No graduation,No diploma. I think meriting hell is isn't as easy as some Christians think. One has to have full knowledge of what one is rejecting in both heart and mind. So far I haven't run into any atheist or agnostic who really has firm grasp of what they're talking about so all you pagans can breath a sigh of relief.

posted by AnCatubh on April 30, 2004 at 11:03 AM | link to this | reply

it's not a punishment -- it's not a consequence

It's Karma -- a purging -- like school -- we learn.

posted by Xeno-x on April 30, 2004 at 6:45 AM | link to this | reply

hell is not a punishment

It is a consequence. It is a result of our actions.

And westwend-- Aquinas you ain't.

posted by AnCatubh on April 30, 2004 at 12:07 AM | link to this | reply

love that Gehenna

yep
only thing here -- it was a trash heap -- a place of dereliction.
I've seen lots of derelicts walking the streets of cities -- I sort of figure it's their hell -- purgatory.
It's quite a picture -- buth you realize that the substance being burned does burn up completely there, in Gehenna, don't you? It doesn't spend eternity in flaming agony.

posted by Xeno-x on April 29, 2004 at 6:49 PM | link to this | reply

Ahhhh

Sorry guys, no more for me. Im done

posted by cantey on April 29, 2004 at 3:05 PM | link to this | reply

Hell:

067 geenna { gheh’-en-nah}

of Hebrew origin 1516 and 2011; TDNT - 1:657, 113; n f

AV - hell 9, hell fire + 3588 + 4442 3; 12

GK - 1147 { gevenna }

1) Hell is the place of the future punishment call "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.

posted by cantey on April 29, 2004 at 3:01 PM | link to this | reply

I'm loving this

I have been a little too busy the last few days to get in here and reply to comments, but just seeing all that is going on it great. So I am sorry if I do not reply to what anyone has said. In fact when I finally get around to replying agian, Most likely there will be way too many to reply to all of them.

Still got alot going on out here, so it will be a while until I start replying again. I will keep up the posts however.

posted by kooka_lives on April 29, 2004 at 3:00 PM | link to this | reply

to look up these things

go to

http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=mt+7:12&version=kjv&showtools=yes

posted by Xeno-x on April 29, 2004 at 2:57 PM | link to this | reply

sorry Kooka

I hope I'm not taking up too much of your space here.
A big ongoing discussion has arisen from your Hell.
Heck!

posted by Xeno-x on April 29, 2004 at 2:52 PM | link to this | reply

this could go on forever (sic)

Cantey
ok please define Hell and use scriptures.

posted by Xeno-x on April 29, 2004 at 2:49 PM | link to this | reply

the word is:

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 2309 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
qevlw apparently strengthened from the alternate form of (138)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Thelo 3:44,318
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
thel'-o Verb
Definition

1. to will, have in mind, intend
1. to be resolved or determined, to purpose
2. to desire, to wish
3. to love
1. to like to do a thing, be fond of doing
4. to take delight in, have pleasure

that's the word -- to be resolved, or determined, to purpose.
sounds strong to me.
if God is determined to do something, can God be stopped from doing it?

posted by Xeno-x on April 29, 2004 at 2:48 PM | link to this | reply

my friends

all I am contending with is what the bible outlines in regards to hell etc. I dont care what Dante or the Cathoholic Church say about the subject. They are responsible for all the misguided error throughout the centuries. Lets get back to basics and fundamentals, which ARE NOT bad things to work with.

posted by cantey on April 29, 2004 at 2:28 PM | link to this | reply

The Divine Comedy

Dante Alighieri (sp) created a Hell that basically looked like a whirlpool with seven or so levels (check out Dungeons and Dragons Fantasy Role Playing for a sort of overview). The different levels were different levels of torment.
And, of course, Dante consigned his worst enemies to this Hell.
This more or less is the official Hell of The Church -- probably a lot better because the people you dislike most are there.
And The Church did something else -- it divided up "Good" people into groups. Those that firmly were members of The Church ascended to Paradise to enjoy the "Beatific Vision" for eternity.
Those that were good, but not within the realm of The Church, were consigned to a Limbo, and some to a Purgatory, until the Great Judge would sort out their fate.
This probably means that good atheists were placed there.
The Church had a better fate for "unbelievers" than a lot of Christians ready to assign someone to Hell for unbelief.
In fact, if you aren't of The Church, you might as well accept that you are going either to Limbo or Purgatory.
Believers with The Church believe that is your fate and feel very sorry for you that you can't enjoy the Beatific Vision along with them.

posted by Xeno-x on April 29, 2004 at 2:07 PM | link to this | reply

Religious Scientists

believe that the only "hell" is the one you create in your own mind.

Jeff

posted by jollyjeff on April 29, 2004 at 1:59 PM | link to this | reply

Dante's Inferno

posted by Xeno-x on April 29, 2004 at 1:56 PM | link to this | reply

Buddanomore We as Christians have no need to question

God on what His word has already declared. I understand your sensitivity on this matter.

posted by cantey on April 29, 2004 at 1:44 PM | link to this | reply

I am well aware of you view point cantey

I have seen your posts on the subject. And I know the scripture you refered to. I said I hope it is a metaphor, not that it is. God gave us the desire to have a questioning attitude and the desire to know more. I think he expects us to question Him. This is one subject I definitely do question. I do not have an answer. I just have the assurance that one day I will understand.

posted by Budmannomore on April 29, 2004 at 1:26 PM | link to this | reply

Cantey, excellent! Jesus truly does reign.

Westwind, go back to the Gospels. There is an unforgivable sin. The unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (sometimes translated as rejection of the Holy Spirit). Christ Himself said this. To many Christians, this means blatent rejection of salvation.

Westwind AND Kooka: Do you think that God will force someone to walk through the pearly gates that doesn't want to be there? Westwind, if you think everyone's going to heaven, then you haven't really read the bible. Read it again. Kooka: God offers us life in the Spirit, and we are free to take it. We are also free not to take it. The choice is yours.

As for your uncle, Kooka, advise him to leave the business of Judgement to God. It's not for your uncle to say.

posted by Gheeghee on April 29, 2004 at 12:40 PM | link to this | reply

Buddanomore, hell is not a metaphor

it is real. And no human being need go there:

everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels Matthew 25:41

We do have a choice, so we are without excuse.

posted by cantey on April 29, 2004 at 12:39 PM | link to this | reply

As strange as this may sound,

what this all comes down to is love. Love is only genuine when it is returned freely. We are created to be in fellowship with God, but in order for us to genuinely love Him as He loves us we have to have the free will, as cantey said. Now, the problem with everyong being "saved" or being in fellowship with God in the next life is that it would eliminate the ability to choose. What is going to actually happen to the people that don't choose Christ in this lifetime the Bible describes as being rather unpleasant (putting it mildly). I believe this is because those who do not choose to be in relationship with God will be in an unnatural state for eternity. The idea of eternal torture is a concept I have a lot of trouble with. I see the points on both sides of this issue. The only thing that gives me peace about this topic is the fact that we are not capable of knowing everything yet. We are like undisciplined children, if you give us more information than we can handle, we will really make a mess of things. Teach a 5 year old how to start your car and change gears and you may get an idea of what I mean. A lot of the Biblical teachings are presented in metaphor, I hope hell is one of those teachings. This topic is interesting because heaven and hell are originally Zoroastrian concepts.

posted by Budmannomore on April 29, 2004 at 12:31 PM | link to this | reply

As strange as this may sound,

posted by Budmannomore on April 29, 2004 at 12:30 PM | link to this | reply

This is true, friend

but in this present age, we as human beings can thwart the will of God for our lives. This is a unique privledge that only human beings have. All of other creation ( including angels) have no ability to do this. And the one angel that tried it, along with his willing cohorts, has been doomed forever. Yes, only human posses free will and the grace that comes with it:

Your words ( will) have been stout against me, saith the LORD. Malachi 3:13 The word stout is translated:

V - strong 48, repair 47, hold 37, strengthened 28, strengthen 14, harden 13, prevail 10, encourage 9, take 9, courage 8, caught 5, stronger 5, hold 5, misc 52; 290

GK - 2616 { qz¾j;

1) to strengthen, prevail, harden, be strong, become strong, be courageous, be firm, grow firm, be resolute, be sore

1a) (Qal)

1a1) to be strong, grow strong

1a1a) to prevail, prevail upon

1a1b) to be firm, be caught fast, be secure

1a1c) to press, be urgent

1a1d) to grow stout, grow rigid, grow hard (bad sense)

1a1e) to be severe, be grievous

1a2) to strengthen

1b) (Piel)

1b1) to make strong

1b2) to restore to strength, give strength

1b3) to strengthen, sustain, encourage

1b4) to make strong, make bold, encourage

1b5) to make firm

1b6) to make rigid, make hard

1c) (Hiphil)

1c1) to make strong, strengthen

1c2) to make firm

1c3) to display strength

1c4) to make severe

1c5) to support

1c6) to repair

1c7) to prevail, prevail upon

1c8) to have or take or keep hold of, retain, hold up, sustain, support

1c9) to hold, contain

1d) (Hithpael)

1d1) to strengthen oneself

1d2) to put forth strength, use one’s strength

1d3) to withstand

1d4) to hold strongly with

this is in accordance with Hebrews 3:8-11:

"Today, if you will hear His voice,
^{8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
In the day of trial in the wilderness,
^{9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me,
And saw My works forty years.
^{10 Therefore I was angry with that generation,
And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart,
And they have not known My ways.’
^{11 So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’ "}}}}^{12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; ¹³ but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin
here you can see the opposing force of wills, a privledge afforded to man ( out of Love) that he has clearly exercised in scripture and followed through with it unhindered by God and Gods resulting displeasure and grief.

posted by
cantey
on April 29, 2004 at 12:07 PM
| link to this | reply

God's power

Cantey, it seems you are doubting God's power.
I was told that if it God's will that something be done, then it was done. God's will cannot be thwarted -- that what I was told.

posted by
Xeno-x
on April 29, 2004 at 11:47 AM
| link to this | reply

Ah another scirmish Kooka you're a genius

westwind, this verse you have quoted, if you really read it, you can see that it implies that it is Gods will ( His desire) that everyone come to the knowledge of the truth, but it does not say that everyone will come to the knowledge of the truth. The reason being because of mans free will ( that God never encroaches upon) and ability to reject the truth, which he sadly does. Therefore your belief that no one goes to hell is false. I am just pointing out your dangerous errors in presenting scripture, I dont want people to go to hell.

posted by
cantey
on April 29, 2004 at 11:36 AM
| link to this | reply

I timothy 2:3-4

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour / WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED; AND TO COME UNTO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH.
It is God's will; and "with God all things are possible."

So no one is going to Hell.

posted by
Xeno-x
on April 29, 2004 at 11:24 AM
| link to this | reply

Good, important question, for everyone:

And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."
^{5 Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new. Revelation 21:4
We must ( as Christians) trust in the ability of God to deal with this horrific reality of witnessing loved ones being delivered to their fate. It is horrible and real. But God is just, and He cannot break His word. Those who reject salvation must enter into judgement. God has forgiven all of us, but you forget: God always and never deviates from observing and enforcing our free will ( that He gave us). He will NEVER interfer with your right to choose your own destiny, even if it takes you to hell.

posted by
cantey
on April 29, 2004 at 11:00 AM
| link to this | reply}}