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budmannomore
I don't see an intelligence behind it. There is nothing controlling nature, that is fairly obvious to me. Nature is wild and chaotic, which is why we get the beauty we get. If there was a mind behind it, then it would not be same and we would see less divergence. Nature itself says to me that there is no God by the fact that there is such variety and chaos to it. If there was a God, the world would be a very boring, orderly place.
posted by
kooka_lives
on April 22, 2004 at 5:47 PM
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Kooka, I respect your right to choose. . .
as with everyone. It is confusing to me how an intelligent person like yourself can discount divinity based on humanity. And also look at the beauty and structure of this world without seeing an intelligence behind it. I may be wrong on this last part, I don't really remember you specifically saying it. But, it is common with people who believe as you do. cantey, my tone did not come from pride, but more from personal bias against your style of expressing yourself. This is my own problem. I do apologize for the offense.
posted by
Budmannomore
on April 22, 2004 at 5:21 PM
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budmannomore
I do think that everyone should find whatever beliefs works for them. I do think there are many Christians out there who do not believe, but say they do in order to be considered 'normal' and not cause problems. I can not and will not lie to myself or others about the way I see the world. I just can not believe in God or Jesus, no matter what. It seems to be a very hard thing for Christians to understand. It is not that I am sitting here fighting against the idea. I just do not see it and it would be lying to say otherwise. You and others seem to think it is some kind of simple act of just giving in and letting yourself believe. It is not. I have to be true to myself and what I believe, and so therefore no amount of just telling me I need to 'give it a try' is going to get me to change my views.
posted by
kooka_lives
on April 22, 2004 at 11:41 AM
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shawnbrantley
Way wrong there. There are teachings we follow that go back farther than Jesus.
Aesop
Aristotle
Plato
All people who's ideas have been around longer than those of Jesus and have had an impact on our world today. They have survived as well. But at least their stories still remain closer to the truth than the tall tales of Jesus.
posted by
kooka_lives
on April 22, 2004 at 11:33 AM
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WriterofLight
I do not attack Christians, I just point out the flaws in their beliefs. In fact I know many Christians whoa re fairly intelligent, so I would not challenge their level of smarts. I do think they are misguide, btu I would never call the stupid of ignorant. Although I have been called that and more be several of the Christians here of Blogit.
Please go and really read some of my past post before passing judgment. it really annoys me to see someone leave a comment such as yours which is obviously a first impression from someone who is upset that I have challenged their ideas.
A the typo thing, that is a last resort of someone who is scared because they can not debate back. Yes, I make typos. I do not have the time to reread everything and catch all my mistakes. I have gone through this dance with several other Christians when they can not say anything else and therefore they try to discredit my intelligence by going after any little thing they can find. I see many typos on potter people's pages, but I don't care. If you get the idea across the that is all that matters.
posted by
kooka_lives
on April 22, 2004 at 11:19 AM
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Jesus, the medieval concoction
We look at the stories of the Bible and see embellishments to what very well probably could have been an actual event or person.
The mythologizing of anything (like George Washington) detracts from the actual person or event, causes disbelief in something that very well could have been actual.
Because of our perception of this Jesus, the Gospels and the actions of this man, who was a Jew and who was given the Jewish name Yeshua become questionable.
Questions that are asked frequently are "How can the perfect Son of God act this way?' referring to a certain action or comment appearing in the Gospels.
Maybe what we need to do is take away that perfection and look at a human being. We find a particular personality, a human one, a person whom all of us have met, one with faults. This in itself, leads me to belief that the person of Yeshua the Jew, of Galilee, was an actual person.
The stories about him were written decades after his life -- compilations of various tales. The four gospels that we have were accepted as "Gospel" in the Fourth Century by one Eusebius (see my latest blog) - who basically discarded hundreds of other gospels (manuscripts of some were discovered in the Twentieth Century in clay pots in the Egyptian desert, some are among the Dead Sea Scrolls).
What we have is the gulf of time between the actual life of Yeshua and the gospels relating the life of Jesus, so we have things added on.
John 16 indicates that this Yeshua could very well have been a Jewish Rabbi, with his own synagogue, and that he suddenly caught a vision which turned away all of his followers but a few.
About his birth -- recent discoveries of the "Star of Bethlehem" (conjunction of certain planets) indicate that he was born @ 6 B.C.E., in the sign of the Virgin, looks like (the matter of where is a subject of much discussion).
In the Gospels, we can find explanations for events that can bring the sotry more in line with reality -- such as the baptism. I think it's the Gospel of John that has John the Baptist (Yehochannan being the Jewish name) relating that he saw the dove come out of the sky and that he heard the voice, where other Gospels have these as visible phenomena (an example of changing the story to a miraculous one.
There is ample evidence here in the Gospels for a real human person, who had a personality common the humans and was more spiritually aware than the rest of us.
If we lose the reality in the myth, then we also lose belief.
posted by
Xeno-x
on April 22, 2004 at 8:58 AM
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Buddanomore
my discourse with Kooka is not ' banter'. Not at all. I found that to be insulting to me and to K. But I forgive you. I am concerned about his spiritual welfare and that is the reason I post to his blogs, in order to share with him in hopes to impart an understanding. Do not bilittle my motive by calling it ' banter' My witness as a Christian is no more or no less important as yours. Watch for pride my brother, it dilutes your witness.
posted by
cantey
on April 20, 2004 at 10:37 PM
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kooka
Have you ever considered Christ after removing the distortion caused by the humanity of His followers? A lot of your positions are based not on Christ or God, but on the humanity of Christians. You know, I really think, without a "road to Damascus" experience, you just simply can't believe. I have read your words, you have conveyed your love of you family and on this point you and I are quite close. We simply disagree on the source of that love. If I understand you correctly, you found the love inside you. I know from experience that I was not capable of love until I became a fully devoted follower of Christ. I would love to encourage you to move Christians out of the way and take a clear look at Christ. This means even looking beyond Paul. His teachings work, I bet not even you would argue against that. Or you can ignore me again and keep bantering with cantey to keep your clicks up!
posted by
Budmannomore
on April 20, 2004 at 9:01 PM
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witty spelling of prophet
posted by
cantey
on April 20, 2004 at 7:58 PM
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Jesus was remarkable
The undeniable thing about Jesus is that his legacy has survived for over 2000 years. No other person on this planet has created such a legacy. He is remembered because his miracles were so fantastic as to promulgate his memory perpetually. There is no other historical figure that can compare to him.
posted by
telemachus
on April 20, 2004 at 7:14 PM
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You certainly have a lot to write, and every right to do so. But your attacking Christians as being stupid, ignorant and so forth is pointless when your writing betrays your own intellectual carelessness. Without going into all the factual errors, if you're going to base your arguments on your own percieved intellectual superiority, take the time to at least get your spelling right unless you don't care about your own credibility. In this piece alone you mangle "Pecos" and "prophet." You obviously put a lot of thought into your ideas; do the same for how you communicate them.
posted by
WriterofLight
on April 20, 2004 at 7:07 PM
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