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Okay
You agreed with the idea of the post, although I was trying to say it was not a good thing that Hitler can get into heaven.
According to the Christian belief only the last moment of life is all that matters. Your heart could be filled with hatred and anger and such your whole life, but in that last moment you can be redeemed simply by believing and asking to be forgiven. Your whole life is unimportant towards God, it is only the last moments that matter.
I am a very moral person and I live a very clean life. I am not going to Heaven because I can not believe. All the actions of my life are unimportant and my heart is unimportant. My belief is all the matters.
The impression I got from you is, somehow if you believe then your heart will be pure and if you do not believe then your heart will not be pure. Yet this does not fit into what I have seen in life.
I am saying that you can tell a lot about a person's heart by their actions through their lives. Sure, some people will act kind when they are not, but they will not be able to put on the act all the time. They will slip. And if God sees all he will see these actions and know.
And in the same respect as good hearted person can do nothing of value with their life and help out no one just because, but still a have good heart.
If I am to be judge I want to be judge as a whole. All of my good vs. all of my bad. My actions, my deeds and my heart. I know if that is how we are judge then I will be judge fairly. Yet I do not have faith in God, so right there that is considered the most important thing and I will have failed even though I have a good heart and have done moral deeds in my life.
Yet Hitler can get into Heaven even though he has not lived a moral life and have had a very evil heart, but in the end he believed and might have asked for forgiveness.
So does that make Hitler a better person than I? Just because he believed in God and I do not? Does that makes Hitler a better person than Gandhi as well? Or at least is this how we look in the eyes of God?
This is the way of thinking that helped me figure out that I wanted to be an Atheist and not accept the idea of such an unfair and egotistical God.
posted by
kooka_lives
on March 29, 2004 at 4:52 PM
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Apology accepted ... Res Judicata ... It really is just a matter of misunderstanding ... There's so much to all of this "Religion" stuff that it makes it very easy to misunderstand ... If I hadn't tried to understand your writings, I wouldn't be spending so much time commenting to you ... Will you consider looking at the last sentence in my first Comment ... I was in agreement with you ... It was just the "action vs belief" thing that entangled the matter ... And as for me, I, too, apologize ...
posted by
LionsBorn
on March 28, 2004 at 8:38 PM
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LionsBorn
I apologize if I said anything that you misunderstood.
In my comment 'I could say something rude about you not being able to understand what I am talking about, but I will be good and say nothing. Although I did notice a few typos there, but that happens and should not really get in the way of the message'.
I was replying to your comment 'Moreover, I have no idea what you are even talking about in your response to me!'
Because I felt you had not even tried to understand what I had said in my previous comment.
Rereading it I do se that it does not come off the way I intended. At the time I was busy with my one year old on my lap and that makes it a little hard to reread what I write.
I meant to say
'I could say something rude about you not being able to understand what I was talking about in my last comment, but I will be good and say nothing. Although I did notice a few typos in it, but that happens and should not really get in the way of the message'
I had felt that the comment was very clear and that you had just not put the effort into trying to understand it. Even with the typos what I had to say should have be easy to figure out.
Although, as with most Christians around here you seem to get very emotional over little things.
posted by
kooka_lives
on March 28, 2004 at 7:49 PM
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Kooka ... YOU ARE RIGHT!!! Your actions have shown me exactly who you are! Thank you for the enlightment. I'll be sure to stay away from you! But, whether you like it or not, I shall pray for you, although I realize in all of your perfection that you don't need it ... And as for the typo's, back at ya! Have you looked closely in the mirror, or is that the problem--you look too closley at yourself and lose sight of others?! Respond as you will, but I shall not engage in this dialogue of stupidity any longer... Talk to the hand! ...
posted by
LionsBorn
on March 28, 2004 at 7:30 PM
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Lionsborn
I put no words in your mouth.
"It's my understanding that God looks upon the heart, which encompasses one's beliefs."
By that you are saying that to believe in God is to make one a good person. If you are not feel free to state such. Otherwise belief is not what Gods judges you on.
Unless f course you somehow trying to say that to believe is not enough, although that does not agree with the Bible for the most part. All you have to do is believe and then ask for forgiveness.
I could say something rude about you not being able to understand what I am talking about, but I will be good and say nothing. Although I did notice a few typos there, but that happens and should not really get in the way of the message
posted by
kooka_lives
on March 28, 2004 at 6:20 PM
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Kooka! Don't put words in my mouth, please! They're sickening to the soul! Moreover, I have no idea what you are even talking about in your response to me! I hope you enjoy your PERFECT life on earth! ... Ta-ta ...
posted by
LionsBorn
on March 28, 2004 at 5:39 PM
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honeykat
God makes lots and lots of people suffer. Did you not read the Bible. The tower of Babel, the great flood, Job, Sadam and Gamora and the list goes on. God likes to make people suffer it seems. And if someone put a gun to your head and said 'Either say you love me or I'll shoot you' 99.9999999999% of the people will say 'I love you' to that person. They had no choice. God gives you the same choice. Either you say 'I love you God' or you are going to Hell. Talk about your warped egos.
posted by
kooka_lives
on March 28, 2004 at 5:19 PM
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Lionsborn
Your actions are determined by your heart, but you can lie to yourself to believe your heart says one thing while your actions say another.
I have made mistakes but I do not believe for one moment that the majority of my actions have been flawed. Yes, I have bad days and do things I egret, but they a the exception not the rule. A heart can be pure and good and the person do nothing for the world. yeah, they believe in God and love and all that, but they just sit around and do nothing. They do not sin, but they do not help anyone either. Yet according to you they get to go to Heaven for doing nothing. Yet someone who volunteers they time, help out every chance he gets and does good in the worked is not valued because they do not believe in God and somehow that makes them a bad person.
Also, you are saying all it takes is a belief in God ot make your heart pure while in fact I know more people who have believed in God and have not been any where near what I would consider to be good people compared to those I know who do not believe and do follow very moral lives in which I would say they have very good hearts. So if God does judge by the heart, then just believing in him should not be enough, yet the Bible say it is.
posted by
kooka_lives
on March 28, 2004 at 5:15 PM
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Kooka ... You got me to thinking about all this ... That's good ... As a former Judicial Attorney and a Counselor-at-Law, I had many ocassions to see how weird people can act when they're involved in a legal matter (not to mention how weird the lawyers and judges act). I found that inside of the courtroom, the Judge, the Lawyers, and the Clients acted differently than they did outside of the courtroom. In that regard, I haven't found that people always act in accord with their beliefs ... Much to the contrary! ... In the legal world, I would have been slain for acting in accord with my beliefs. Hence, one of the mmmaaaaannnnnnyyy reasons why I'm no longer involved in the legal arena ...
posted by
LionsBorn
on March 28, 2004 at 4:48 PM
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Kooka Lives ... You kind of made my point ... Mankind looks at our actions ... God looks on our heart ... Because God, and not mankind, is my ultimate judge, I am thankful that God looks upon my heart during those times when I don't (or haven't) acted in accordance with my true values and beliefs ... I think it's called, "making a mistake," or in Biblical terms it might be called, "sinning when you're angry." How wonderful for you if you are ALWAYS able to walk (act) in accord with your beliefs. You're a much better person than I am! ... It seems to me that to never make a mistake is to never learn ...
posted by
LionsBorn
on March 28, 2004 at 3:56 PM
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God Doesnt make anyone suffer! Nature takes its course! eVery season under
the sun!!! He permits it to rain on the just and the unjust!!! As for you , You have your own life to live to believe or not to believe in him!!!! your choice !
Ive done made mine!
Thanks anyway!
posted by
honeykat4
on March 28, 2004 at 3:35 PM
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lionsborn
That comment just blew me away.
"I think I'd rather be judged for my beliefs than for (or by) my actions."
Are you that unsure of your actions? DO you not believe you act morally?
I am sure of my actions and of the person I am. I am so sure that I want to be judge on my actions because I know my actions are right.
"It's my understanding that God looks upon the heart, which encompasses one's beliefs. Mankind looks upon one's actions, which causes judgment and misunderstanding."
But one's actions do not always follow one's beliefs and so, like Hitler, his actions did not really follow beliefs and he did some extremely horrible actions. Also it is not very hard for a person to get themselves to believe they are doing right and that they are following their beliefs and then go and do something truly evil in the name of those beliefs. I have seen that it is easy to fool yourself and make it so your beliefs have nothing to with your actions. Or you can say you believe and do not.
And why shouldn't one's action not be judged? Most actions are obvious and show just what a person is like. Very rarely do actions create misunderstanding. If a person picks a fight, then they have a problem with being violent. If a person goes and talks in a calm voice and is kind, then they are generally a kind person. In fact I learn more of whoa person really is by watching how they act in various situation rather than learning their beliefs. Actions are the best window into a person's soul. I will admit that some people know how to make others think what they want about them, but most of the time people do not have enough self control to always hide their actions enough to hide who they truly are.
posted by
kooka_lives
on March 28, 2004 at 8:54 AM
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mrsill96
It must be nice to be able to go and figure out the rules the fit into you way of thinking whenever you want. How many people are going to try and rewrite the definition of Christian? Neither God nor Jesus made all these rules you and others have gone and come up with. It seem like many more than Hitler have gone and added ot it all, but even there they were still Christians.'
All a Christian is is someone who believes and worships Christ. it has nothing to do in which way you follow those beliefs. Just because someone worships differently than you makes them no less a Christian.
posted by
kooka_lives
on March 28, 2004 at 8:44 AM
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Your point is well made. I don't disagree with you, but I do accept the Hitler theory as stated in the Post. Unfortunately (or fortunately), I'm not familiar with Hitler's personal life. He never quite inspired me, although I am a Jew at heart (spiritual implication intended).
posted by
LionsBorn
on March 27, 2004 at 9:34 PM
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Did you know you joined the Blogit on my birthday?
posted by
christinadanderson
on March 27, 2004 at 9:28 PM
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Let's take your comment:
- The only true requirement to be called a Christian is to believe and worship Christ.
Let's say this is true, of which it really is not. Hitler still would not make it to heaven, because he added something to belief. What? Worship. In order to get to heaven you have to believe in Christ alone and by itself. If you ad anything to faith, you void it out. You can read my inkwell debates if you are interested in really finding out more. Most people are not.
posted by
christinadanderson
on March 27, 2004 at 9:27 PM
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I think I'd rather be judged for my beliefs than for (or by) my actions ... Even though I don't always act in accordance with my beliefs, I do always have my beliefs. It's my understanding that God looks upon the heart, which encompasses one's beliefs. Mankind looks upon one's actions, which causes judgment and misunderstanding. That seems like a loving and fair God to me.
I don't know, but if what you say about Hitler is true, then I would certainly have to agree with you. How else is prophecy to be fulfilled, lest there be someone to fulfill it (working through the person)? Whatever ... that's a whole other subject .... Anyway, very interesting Post.
posted by
LionsBorn
on March 27, 2004 at 9:03 PM
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honeykat4
Sorry, but I ain't buying.
I don't need to be saved, so it ain't gonna happen.
'He doesnt want to make you love him or know him', then you have not read the Bible. Are you aware of the first two commandments? God has an ego the size of the universe and you better love him or he's gonna get mid-evil on your behind. Or at least that is what he commands in the Bible. 'Love me or I am going to make you suffer'. He is just the kind of God you want to believe in. Kind of like those abusive parents that can not understand why they kids resent them so.
posted by
kooka_lives
on March 27, 2004 at 7:47 PM
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Well, Kooka .. I would like to give you some biblical Knowledge!
Yes, you can be forgiven! Two , YOu must Forgive others before your father in heaven will forgive you.. THis is written in the bible! I dont know if Hitler forgave all those jews and others he killed for doing him wrong! That is the way he felt Before he died! I also, am convinced that He was not lead by the spirit of Truth which is every word out of Gods mouth! Sure he killed many!!! God said,
Turn from your evil ways!!! He never turned from them ... But, If he Repented
He would be saved if he be trully sorry! Saul Murdered the Christians men women and children, then God changed his murderous heart and Became Paul !!!
He called himself the worse of all sinners!
We must Forgive also! IF God can save Paul , Hitler or anyone else , He can also save you!!! YOU have free will God gave that to you! Its a Gift! He doesnt want to make you love him or know him , even though he loves us all!
I know his words!!!!
and I love him!
honeykat
posted by
honeykat4
on March 27, 2004 at 9:34 AM
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So we are rewriting definitions
But that is the standard Christian way of thinking. whenever something does not fit into what we want it to fit into, we can just change the rules. It almost seems like Christianity starts to have more exceptions than rules after a certain point.
A Christian is someone who believes and worships Christ. Hitler believed in and worshiped Christ. Hitler was a Christian. This is 100% fact. Trying to claim otherwise is just lying to the world and yourself. Rewrite the rules all you want if it makes you feel better. But Hitler being a Christian is truth, more so than anything in the Bible.
posted by
kooka_lives
on March 27, 2004 at 9:04 AM
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If Hitler was a Christian then I'm the Pope!
I've seen video of school children singing worship songs to Hitler. "Hitler is our Savior, He is our Redeemer."
These songs were instituted by Hitler. No true follower of Jesus would force people to worship himself.
And this is far different than making mistakes or being misguided, this falls into the category of replacing Jesus and assuming God-hood.
Sean Gray, Clear Choice News
posted by
itisdone
on March 27, 2004 at 8:47 AM
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cjam
This is one of the arguments I was expecting and I am ready for it.
Then God is not all forgiving. That is just an easy out and does not fit in with the idea of forgiveness. One example does not a rule a make. If you believe and ask for God's forgiveness, then you are suppose to get it. There is nothing in there about taking your own life. Others wise why did Jesus die then, it takes away from the whole point of it all. But it does fit in with so many flawed ideas of the Christian belief system. Either all sins are forgiven if you ask for it or not. Throwing in exceptions only weakens the idea and shows the flaws better.
posted by
kooka_lives
on March 27, 2004 at 7:15 AM
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If a person commits suicide
They take their own life. God doesn't allow suicides into heaven. dont argue with me either, because when Judas hung himself because he felt remorse, Jesus said it would have been better for him (Judas) if he had not committed this act. Hitler wont be in Heaven.
posted by
cjam
on March 26, 2004 at 11:06 PM
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Excellent post.
PL
posted by
PrincessLucy
on March 26, 2004 at 10:05 PM
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