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Kookla
I think I stated what Iwanted to say in my last blog. You've mentioned most of the same things in your last comment. And I know that we can agree to disagree.
But, let me say this. I have never tried to judge anyone based on my beliefs and will not start now. I was not raised that way. And yes I have spent time with every type of person we have talked about along with drug dealers, thieves and MURDERERS. I live in a small, rural town of 300 and know someone who has done all of these things. I have many friends and relatives who have done time. I knew what all of them were doing. And when. People think that I am naive, but I'm not. I just don't need to tell everyone how street smart I am. And what they did was none of my business.
When we were together and something was about to go down these guys would give me the heads up and I was out of there. I knew, because I knew who was trouble and who wasn't. Because of this, they knew that they could trust me and still do. The same with women that I knew who were selling their bodies. I knew more than their parents, wives and husbands. People don't tell their life stories to those that they think hold them in judgement.
Some of the se people come into my office for medical treatment and I see the looks that they get from other patients and my coworkers. It is up to me to let both parties know, subtley, that everything is okay. I am the icebreaker. I can see how relieved my friends are when they see me, because they know that I know their past and present situation and won't judge them on it and I'm happy to help them in any way.
I had a boss who was an elderly man and living with his male coworker. Didn't bother me a bit. They were both nice to me and I was nice to them. We respected each other and that's all that matters. I have relatives who are lesbians AND strippers. So what?
What I am trying to say is no matter what I may think, that does not mean I don't love. Hell, I've made my share of mistakes and been labeled so know what it's like. I was a kid with a temper. Got in a fight with a teacher in 7th grade. So what makes me any better than any of the people we've mentioned?
Above all else, I care about people. No matter who they are. I love them all. And I don't form opinions without knowing something about the people I'm talking about.
Believe me, I've seen plenty in my short lifetime to know.
posted by
growler
on August 5, 2010 at 3:21 PM
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growler, let's go point by point
A friend of mine almost killed me and some of my friends by driving under the influence of marijuana, so I ahve some very personal experience with the issue. That said, it still should be legal and the put to the same manner of regulation as alcohol and tobacco. I don't smoke and drink rarely, but if I want a beer I can go get one. Due to how marijuana, is really at the same level as alcohol, if i want to go and smoke a joint I should be able to.
And please don't try the 'gateway drug' thing. Pot is no more a gateway drug than alcohol, caffeine or aspirin. I have smoked pot and I never had any desire to try anything more dangerous, because I had enough common sense and control. To those who do not have that kind of control, ANYTHING is a gateway drug because they want to try more and more things that will give them that high. It is the person, not the pot that is the problem at that level.
Now for the porn issue. Where did I use the phrase 'moral ground' when I referred to porn? The moral attitude related to porn are based off of religious ideas and so our society has been taught to see such things in a negative light. I was comparing porn to professional sports in a very basic sense. Both are forms of entertainment fully based on a person selling their body for the entertainment of others. You can pace whatever morals you want into that. Sports store abuse their body as much if not more than pron stars do. Sports star are more likely to sustain injuries that will cause them permanent damage or even death. You talk about the team aspect here... Some sports you don't need a team, and some porn you don't need a team, but for the most part porn is a team experience.
Then you mentions 'self esteem'. I know kids who played team sport who came away with LESS self esteem because they played. I played soccer for a few seasons way back when and it did NOTHING to help my self esteem. The only reason for the pron self esteem issues are from the forced morals issue ,which gives a group of people the justification to out down porn stars, lowering their self esteem. I've been to strip clubs and when there I showed respect to the girls,never judging them and even complimenting them and enjoying the show they were putting on. It is a form of entertainment that I enjoy and respect. It is the religious ideas that cause the self esteem problems, not the actions themselves. Without the forced morals of the religious idea,pron,stripping and prostitution would all be much healthier in general on all levels, and could actually help build up people's self esteem.
Now e get to homosexuals and that is one easy one for me to tackle. If we were all gay would we vanish from the Earth? With our level of technology and reasoning, no we would find ways to have children artificially. It would actually help with population control and stop unwanted pregnancies. So point made, we all need to turn gay to help make the world a better place.
Now to get a little more serious, sex among human beings is rarely about reproduction. I've known sexually active couples who just have no desire to have kids, should they stop having sex then? And not all men or women are able to have kids to begin with. My wife and I have a good sex life and she can no longer have kids. Should it be viewed as wrong for us to have sex now?
The you make a very strange assumption. There is NOTHING out there to suggest that homosexual relationships are any different that heterosexual ones. The better relationship in both camps are going to be the ones where their is a real bond there. And sexual attraction plays just as big a part with heterosexual as with homosexuals. Have you spent any time at all with homosexual couples?
I like your take on how to be a productive member of society. Well written.
Thank you for your reply and let's see where we can go with this exchange. I am enjoying it.
posted by
kooka_lives
on August 3, 2010 at 8:24 PM
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WE DISAGREE
...but that's okay. As I said, I'm a live and let live guy. Now to your point of marijuana, I don't smoke it and am in the minority as far as my friends and some relatives. I have never told them not to and never will. I can remember getting my butt kicked on the basketball court after the guys on the other team lit up. So be it. I don't smoke or drink either. I grew up on a tobacco farm. I know what goes into the stuff. And once again, I don't tell anyone what to do or not do as far as that goes. And, yes, I have seen alcohol ruin some lives too. Just as I have with marijuana. I've had friends kill themselves drunk driving. What a shame. I don't like to see lives ruined of people who use and their families ruined, but that's just me.
As for pornography where is it on the same moral ground as professional sports? At least in sports there is a team aspect where you are playing for the people around you as well as yourself. And you make physical sacrifices every time that you go out there for the good of the team. And sports DOES help build self esteem. Where is that the case in porn? In porn there is nothing more than the pleasure of sex. If you are into that fine.
As for homosexuality, let me ask you this? If we all became homosexuals, wouldn't the world population become extinct? Man and woman were put on earth to be fruitful and multiply. If a man and woman marry, they can say that they don't want children, but there is still a chance they may have a child. It happened with my best friend and his wife and now they have a lovely boy and girl. If two homosexuals marry this can never happen. And adoption is not the same. Also, homosexuality is most always based on the physical pleasure first. I believe that all relationships should be based on a friendship level first then physical. When I put the physical first my relationships suffer. When I look at a woman for what she is on the inside first, they work out much better.
And last, you ARE doing the world some good by simply being a PRODUCTIVE member of society no matter what your job is. I work in the medical field and know that I am giving back to the world by making my patients better so that they can go to work and school and be productive again. By you being employed, you help the economy and the people in it. If you don't have any money than how can you help the cashier at the grocery store, because you can't buy food to keep them employed. You keep the electrician employed, because you pay the bill. Same with the phone employee. And the restauranteur. And, if you have any kids, the clubs that they may participate in by allowing them to do what they do and giving the organization money to do it. The only way that you can not help society is by sitting at home doing nothing or committing crimes against it.
Just being on blogit and having an open discussion with us shows productivity to me. It means that you have something to say and you care.
Of all the things that I just wrote, never forget that you are a productive member of society who IS making a difference whether you recognize it or not.
posted by
growler
on July 30, 2010 at 6:06 PM
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morality is a personal matter -- different morality for different people
if you want to protect yours, don't deny another theirs
posted by
Xeno-x
on July 30, 2010 at 10:36 AM
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growler
Yes that is the Golden Rule. I was saying we need to add the 'live and let live' to it for a more complete philosophy on life.
Right off the back you are showing the problem with the moral issue.
The drug issue is fairly complex, but we have alcohol and cigarettes already being legal and so pot is right at that same level. Hardcore drugs are a different story.But the moral issue of put is really silly if we allow alcohol already.
I personally see nothing at all degrading about pornography and feel that the only reason it is viewed as such is because of forced moral ideas from religions. It really is no more selling of one's body than professional sports.
And there are cases of homosexuality in other areas of the animal kingdom than humans. That has been documented. Most sex humans have is for pleasure and there is nothing at all in the least wrong with that. Pleasure is a very good thing.
Most of what we do in our everyday lives it not at all about making the world a better place. My job doesn't do that and neither do most people's jobs. When we get the chance we should do all we can to make the world better, but it is not reasonable to assume that we are going to do that everyday with every action we take. I hope I have done that in my life, but I know it is not everyday or with most of the actions I take.
I feel the most important aspect of life is to enjoy it and help others enjoy. Find pleasure where you can and do not deny others of finding their own pleasures.
So for me to do right by others would be to help them enjoy life as they feel they need as long as it does no harm to others.
Right here we see that each of us have differing views of morals and so we can see that right away that he litigation of moral values is just not going to work. We two would have a hard time agreeing on morals, add in a few dozen religions and things can get really messy as common sense and individual freedom gets trampled.
posted by
kooka_lives
on July 29, 2010 at 7:53 PM
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I THINK THE GOLDEN RULE IS...
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I am a live and let live person myself, but there are some things that I do not agree wtih that people do. I have seen drugs ruin too many lives and snuff out others to agree that it is morally right. I really cannot understand how a woman or man can degrade themselves by doing pornography. I mean where is their self esteem? I have five sisters and I know that I wouldn't want to see any of them doing porn. I wouldn't love them any less, but don't want to see them do it. As far as homosexuality, to each his own but just like drugs and pornography same sex intercourse is done for nothing more than pleasure. Animals don't do it and aren't we supposed to be the smartest species of all?
But my main question to you would be this. Where does any of the things that these people do make the world a better place? Isn't that what we are here for? To make the world a better place by doing right by others? At least that's what my Pastor (and Senator) tells me.
posted by
growler
on July 29, 2010 at 6:15 PM
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Ash
I wouldn't say that we are seeing eye to eye on this. He just made an insightful comment. My bet is that his take on what he said does not match up to me take on it.
Just remember, even a broken clock is right twice a day. So I am not at all surprised when from time to time conservative fundamentalists actually make sense in something they say.
posted by
kooka_lives
on July 29, 2010 at 5:30 PM
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Yes Corbin,
You making any level of sense is a sign that Hell has frozen over.
posted by
kooka_lives
on July 29, 2010 at 5:28 PM
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Hell has not frozen over yet......
posted by
Corbin_Dallas
on July 29, 2010 at 4:39 PM
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I agree...
and u mean u and corbin actually see eye to eye on this critical and perceptive observation? what is this site coming to...hahaha! Best, Ash
posted by
ash_pradhan
on July 29, 2010 at 4:35 PM
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UtahJay
Chances are I did not misunderstand you. I will try to find the comments you are talking about and reply to them in that comments section.
posted by
kooka_lives
on July 29, 2010 at 3:46 PM
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Sunny
Justi has called out the pitchforks on me several times as she claims she cannot stay here any longer due to all the 'evil attacks' I made on her. So I very much know where you are coming from right now.
Chances are she won't leave. She never does. She gets everyone to out you and try to drive you away from Blogit by playing the victim and then after a week or so she is back to business as normal. She got the extra attention she wanted as well as all the support for how horrible we treated her because we disagreed with what she said, which seems to be all she wants.
posted by
kooka_lives
on July 29, 2010 at 3:45 PM
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growler
I very much understand what you are saying there. One of the big problems with that however is that we cannot all agree on what is 'morally' correct. I think homosexuality, polygamy, smoking pot, watching porn, premarital sex are all morally fine. Many disagree with wish to force us all to live by their morals. So the end all moral is that should become the Golden Rule above all else with the basics of live and let live as long as they are not harming you put in there.
posted by
kooka_lives
on July 29, 2010 at 3:41 PM
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your posts
Kooka this is a good post, but what I said about your post's you misunderstood, see our conversation and my explanation...Utah Jay
posted by
UtahJay
on July 29, 2010 at 12:00 PM
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MAYBE
...the problem is not religion, but religious beliefs and how they are interpreted. I go to a Christian church that is non-denominational. I grew up Catholic, because that's what my Mom was and my Dad is Baptist. Mom became totally disenchanted with Catholicism and switched to my father's church taking my sisters with her. I always questioned Catholicism from day one. My sisters and brother's now go to non-denominationals along with me.
I go to a Christian church where my Pastor is a state Senator. He never politics from the pulpit and allows any politician who wants to visit and introduce themselves to us members. In other words, he keeps church and state separate. Though he is a firm believer of the Bible and all that is in it, he always tells us that even though we may think others are sinners, we are too including himself. There are some things that he is staunchly against, like gay marriage and has a good way of explaining why. Maybe I'll blog what he said one day.
But what I'm trying to say is our Pastor tells us every Sunday that no matter what we may think of someone or something we should never let that stop us from loving each other and helping each other to make the world the best it can be.
Or in other words. It's not about us. No matter who or what you may believe in, it's not about you. It is about what is morally correct. I know that may not make sense. If someone can explain that last part better, please do.
I think that may be the problem.
Maybe my father said it best to my mother years ago when she said that the Bible is always right. Excuse my French in the next sentence. He said:
"S**t too! It was wrote by man wasn't it?"
I've said posted that before here I think.
posted by
growler
on July 29, 2010 at 6:52 AM
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Kooka
Direct and unapologetic, yes...it was very hard...along with certain comments about me being the one who needs to chill, and what an evil brat I am for attacking her...she is the victim here, right.
But that is the way it is playing out... she is the victim... poor Justi. I actually felt bad for her and was going to go tell her I was done and she didn't have to leave on my account when she posted her "Goodbye" post not too long ago...but when I read it, I just got even more pissed off.
Yes, I have also dealt with her in the past, and she doesn't like contradiction at all. She just wants to say what she has to say with a chorus of comments that say "Uh huh, Uh huh, Uh huh", which is why I and I'm sure you and some others don't bother with her.
At some time she's going to have to learn that the world isn't all about her and her beliefs, that there are many others who's beliefs and points are just as valid as her own.
If she wants to believe that a man who may have never actually existed is God, she is welcome to. But she will never prove her "facts" by that way of thinking with me.
posted by
Afzal_Sunny7
on July 28, 2010 at 5:53 PM
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Sunny
Seeing someone you care about having their faith and who they are attacked in such a manner had to have been hard, especially in such a direct and unapologetic manner. But the whole situation only helped to show how blind some people are in their faith. They get to the point where they no longer care about facts and truth and only focus on how right everything they say, most of which they were told by those who control their thinking, is above all else. I've dealt with Justi and her nonsense and so I know how frustrating she can be. She is the kind of person who knows next to nothing about her own faith and even less about everyone else's, yet she claims to know it all. Regretfully that is also the kind of person who talks the loudest to get heard over common sense are reasoning. And so our world gets screwed up by that kind of thinking at every turn.
And yet they call us the unenlightened and ignorant. Funny, I don't need to tear down someone's faith in order to feel better about my own beliefs. To me that is being unenlightened and ignorant.
posted by
kooka_lives
on July 28, 2010 at 4:56 PM
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I did also see and like that comment.
About the Bible...a few of them often seem to forget what is in it. They condemn other people's holy texts ignoring the basic fact that their own has very much of the same in it.
I'm also a pretty firm believer that when it comes to religion we should just say NO! That will probably hold true for me forever now, but I'm not opposed to others having theirs, as long as it makes them happy.
posted by
Afzal_Sunny7
on July 28, 2010 at 3:13 PM
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