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Re: AardigeAfrikaner
Kooka, I see your point. You do take the matter of being offensive to heart though. I get the impression that you are a keen campfighter for people you perceive to be wrongly accused of whatever. I too do not see the point of being intentionally offensive to anybody, although I know people who get a "sick kick" out of that kind of abuse, and I also try not to be. I do not say that this is a requirement for everybody, but I have found that in my own life there were times when being offended was a precursor to learning and strengthening my own tolerance and patience which to mind mind have improved my own and others experience in life. As long as we are not physically assaulting each other, I believe it is good for people to differ in belief and to engage each other in argument. We all have much to learn from each other and may occasionally make offensive remarks in the process. As long as we can admit to that if we are guilty and get over it if we feel offended we can contribute much to the pool of thoughts that others who do not think about these matters so much or feel about it so strongly will probably never think about.
posted by
AardigeAfrikaner
on June 5, 2008 at 10:02 PM
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GEPRUITT YOU HAVE TO REPHRASE -- LOSER IS NOT THE RIGHT WORD
Maybe discriminated against or something like that.
You have to explain it in that manner because you used the wrong word.
Then apologize for the word "loser".
It's that smiple.
I believe you were trying to emphasize that it is hard for one to declare something that flies in the face of the majority viewpoint. The majority view point, as I have stated (I think) has persecuted the minority viewpoints since time immemorial -- or a least throughout recorded history.
posted by
Xeno-x
on June 2, 2008 at 12:46 PM
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Idyllwilde
I think you summed it up really well. Despite some people's beliefs, atheists are out there seeking 'truth' just as much as anyone else. It is just we are unable to believe in God. When we ask hard questions and point out the flaws we see in certain areas of religious ideas, we are told we are attacking and get labeled with degrading generalized statements, such as being 'losers' just because we are not part of the majority.
posted by
kooka_lives
on June 2, 2008 at 10:18 AM
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AardigeAfrikaner
At no point have I said I thought the comment was directed at me nor did I say I was offended by it. I did however say the remark was offensive due to the degrading generalization of it. If someone were to say 'All Announced Christians are losers' I would find that just as offensive due to the degrading nature of it as well as the insult towards spatiality in general.
It really is something that so many believers here seem to completely not understand how offense works. Just because you are not offended by a comment directly, does not mean said comment is not offensive. In the same light, just because you did not mean any offense by making a comment, does mean there is not something offensive to it.
Trust me, it takes a lot to really offended me. I can blow off all manner of insult and personal attack. But this was not the case here. The comment was 100% blindly generalized and held nothing positive in it. It only served to degrade one group for being open and honest about their beliefs. Take a look at Idyllwilde's comment. She ends with the right kind of attitude.
I know I would never allow myself to make such insulting comments that label all people of one group to be ''losers' just because they believe as they do and are honest about it.
posted by
kooka_lives
on June 2, 2008 at 10:14 AM
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Agnostic Comment On Atheism
Everyone is searching for the 'meaning of life', a sum of reason and logic that at least approximates a reason for believing in something. Some Atheists can't come to a conclusion that proves the existance of God so they reject the idea and traipse through life ignoring the question. Some find what they believe is a reasonable and reasoned philosophy that ennables them to exclude God from their belief system.
Some are simply too lazy or hedonistic to bother with God. This can be applied to believers, too. As long as one is honestly and actively searching for the truth of life, he cannot be termed a loser or an idiot.
posted by
Idyllwilde
on June 2, 2008 at 9:21 AM
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comment on the comments
Thanks for your encouraging response to my comment. Some people are more easily offended than others. I'm generalizing here as a response to the debate you seem to be having here, so Kooka, if you read this; it is not aimed specifically at you. However, if the shoe fits, put it on. Being able to handle statements that a person perceives to be offensively aimed at him or her (regardless of the intention behind the statement) is a sure sign of spiritual maturity in my mind. People who deny the value of a path of spiritual training (under whatever label or simply as a natural way of being) or confuse spirituality with simply having an ethical or moral stance will obviously not show spiritual maturity since they are not inclined to practice a path of spiritual progress. They are like babies who want to hear only soothing sounds and throw tantrums the moment someone does not engage them in the way they want to be engaged. Such people usually only promote tolerance towards others of different persuasion because they want to be treated with gloves themselves, mostly because of deeply engrained feelings of inferiority. Put some of them in charge or let them become the majority and they will give anybody who differs from them all hell. They will most probably deny that this will be the case since they usually believe that they are morally superior and find almost any statement they perceive to be in conflict with their self-image offensive. Such people can never be effective leaders of diverse peoples, since they will not be able to cope with criticism. There may well be exceptions to the rule. Fact is; there is a tendency for people to defend most strongly when they feel most vulnerable. Another factor to take into consideration is the cultural milieu many kids grow up in nowadays where children are praised even if they perform poorly and told they are beautiful even if they are obviously ugly ("a positive thinking" ideological foolishness) which does not prepare them for life alongside people who are more honest in expressing their true feelings and perceptions.
posted by
AardigeAfrikaner
on June 2, 2008 at 5:30 AM
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Re: "Hopefully, we grow. . ."
Thank you so much for your open and frank opinion! I do not know from reading it whether you are a Believer or Non-Believer, and, quite honestly, that is none of my business. We are all humans, each struggling to find meaning, and it is, as you say, to be hoped that "we grow from discussing these things." I think that such free and open discussion is perhaps the ONLY way this can be done.
I do not care in the least whether you are Believer, Agnostic, or Atheist! You have presented yourself, in my opinion, in a highly admiral manner, and are more than welcome to visit this post anytime you wish! I hope to hear from you again soon, Callista!
Gerald
posted by
GEPRUITT
on June 1, 2008 at 1:56 PM
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GEPRUIT, I ain't gonna jsut go away
If I was to just walk away now and not stand up for my beliefs and not defend myself when someone makes a very degrading statement, then I would be a loser. But I am not, so I will not just let you be when you clearly are not even trying to understand just what being offensive is.
When you say 'All Announced Atheists are losers' you are making an insulting and degrading statement. It does not matter if this is your opinion or not, it is still insulting and degrading. It is not silly to find such a thing offensive. I would find it offensive if someone said 'All announced Christians are losers' because it is such a generalized, degrading statement that has nothing positive to present to anyone in it.
I do believe most people who are really atheists are scared to come out and admit their beliefs because of the ideas you seem to be wishing to promote here. You are saying that because we won't fit in with everyone else that we should hide who we are. That is NOT a positive way of thinking and that is not going to help anyone.
You still have not shown me what I am losing by openly admitting my belief and being honest. Until you can do that, you point is really nothing but an insult. I gain a whole lot by being honest and open about who I am. There is so much strength for any to gain by being honest with the world.
You views here are offsnevisve, insulting and degrading. I am lost as to how you cannot see this. You are promoting the idea that people should not be honest, but instead try to fit in with the crowd, hiding who they really are. You'd make a great drug dealer with that kind of mindset.
I've still not done anything more than go off of what you have said. You need not mean to be insulting and degrading to end up being insulting and degrading.
posted by
kooka_lives
on June 1, 2008 at 9:39 AM
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I agree with you that most atheist do not announce that they are atheist,
because it is a very unpopular belief. We as humans have a right to beliefs we do not want to argue about. We know that we cannot change this particular popular opinion that there is a God, and we cannot help the way we feel about things. I feel it is best to keep it to ourselves if we feel we are an atheist, because we all know that things change, people change, feelings change, but once we announce something it is hard to change what people think of us. Good post, hopefully we grow from discussing these things.
posted by
callista22001
on June 1, 2008 at 8:58 AM
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Re: GEPRUIT, I am an agnostic. I think there is a problem of language
Thanks, Straight, you do not have it wrong. Announcing the Atheism is precisely what makes them vulnerable. However, saying "announced Atheist" is saying the same thing as sayiing you have announced yourself as an atheist, I think. Thanks for your helpful comment, and welcome to this post anytime!
Gerald
posted by
GEPRUITT
on May 31, 2008 at 9:01 PM
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GEPRUIT, I am an agnostic. I think there is a problem of language
construction in your statements which is causing the misunderstanding. What is understood from a plain reading of what u say is that all atheists are losers. But what you are actually saying is announcing the atheism makes them vulnerable. Or have I got it wrong?
And don't worry if we've had it wrong. If you feel like, clarify. Or if not, leave it.
The world will move on, anyway
posted by
Straightforward
on May 31, 2008 at 8:24 PM
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Re: Kooka, one final comment to you
Your last comment is loaded with your own imaginings and assumptions, and not based at all on what I said. It is, rather, based on what you interpreted it to say. First of all, of course all announced Atheists are known to be Atheists! This, in my opinion, is not representative by any means of the actual number of Atheists. If they do not annonce it, then neither you nor I ever even know they are Atheists! It is my opinion that many (and I think) MOST all Atheists never announce it. You announced and outspoken Atheists represent only a very small fraction of the real number of Atheists, in my honest opinion.
Secondly, I never degraded anyone, nor did I say a word about anyone's belief. You, through your assumptions, falsely attributed that to me.
Lastly, if someone told me that I was a loser becuse of my beliefs, then I would in no way be offended by that opinion. This would simply be his opinion, and I would be silly and extremely immature to be at all bothered by that. I would simply accept it as his opinion.
Now, Kooka, I do not wish to sound rude, but I have already wasted far too much time "defending" what should never have needed defending at all, and I have had enough of that. Simply read my opinion, agree or disagree with it as you will, and let it go at that. I will not respond to this again. I have more readers than you to consider, and you have already received much more than a fair share of attention. O.K.?
posted by
GEPRUITT
on May 31, 2008 at 7:48 PM
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Do you just not get what 'offended' means?
You said that all announced atheists are losers. That is 100% offensive. You have admitted that this was not tongue in check or sarcasm. You made a generalized statement that degrades people because of their beliefs and that they are open about those beliefs.
Are you claiming that is someone told you that your were a loser because of your beliefs that you would not be offended by this?
posted by
kooka_lives
on May 31, 2008 at 5:59 PM
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Re: Wooly
I have been following your posts for some time now, and have come to highly respect and admire your writings. You may even look like a wooly "BOOGER" for all I know, but your thoughts and writings tell an entirely different story. Welcome aboard and visit me often!
Gerald
posted by
GEPRUITT
on May 31, 2008 at 5:57 PM
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I'm a Panentheist Gnostic and as such may sometimes look like an atheist to a fundamentalist Monotheist. I also seem to look like someone with "wooly" thinking to some atheists and or agnostics. To my mind anybody who believes there is no greater intelligence at work in the universe than his/her own minuscule intelligence is a self absorbed fool, who I hope will wake up from fairyland one day before his/her own death.
posted by
AardigeAfrikaner
on May 31, 2008 at 5:39 PM
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Re: Lost
Soul,
Your comment serves to re-inforce mine that all announced Atheists are losers!
Thanks to you and Sam444 for being brave enough to comment!
You other guys and gals: it' not too late; you can still come back here and speak your mind!
posted by
GEPRUITT
on May 31, 2008 at 5:09 PM
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Atheists have indeed lost. They have fallen prey to the naysayers and have been blocked from taking the plunge into seeking God. They cannot remove themselves from that sad location!
posted by
Soul_Builder101
on May 31, 2008 at 12:39 PM
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Re: Sam
Thanks, Sam: you can't know how much that means to me!!!
posted by
GEPRUITT
on May 30, 2008 at 5:56 PM
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I like reading your work. I am also impressed how you stir your reader! Well done indeed! sam
posted by
sam444
on May 30, 2008 at 3:51 PM
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