Comments on The War In Iraq Is Going To "Take Awhile" And The End Is "Indiscernible"

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We'll let Glennb speak for himself on that issue, SurvivorMom, because I

have found that it is sometimes difficult to ascertain Glennb's true intent without a couple of extra posts.  I was confused by the racial lines as well, but every now and then Glennb lobs them at me -- and to this day have no real inkling as to why.  But I'll not presuppose to know what or how he thinks.  I do, however, believe him to be a thoughtful and idealistic person, though a bit reactionary.  As for his party affiliation, I'd go so far as to say he's anti-politician, which works for me...

posted by saul_relative on July 25, 2007 at 10:46 AM | link to this | reply

Thank you, Durbin. And to you as well...

posted by saul_relative on July 25, 2007 at 10:41 AM | link to this | reply

And I was so enjoying this little debate...

...until someone dropped the ever so popular "random race card".  That's always a sign for me to roll my eyes and leave.  Saul, though we have different views, I respect your points and you do express them effectively.  Glennb....I'm still trying to figure you out...and how this topic became racial....hmmmmm.  Glenn, if you are Republican, then I'm saddened that you make us all look ignorant and like biggots.  If you are Democrat....I'm REALLY confused. 

posted by SurvivorMom on July 25, 2007 at 8:47 AM | link to this | reply

A message from my heart and spirit: GOD MORNING & God be with us NOW

posted by ILLUMINATI8 on July 25, 2007 at 4:17 AM | link to this | reply

Thanks, Durbin. Just trying to do my part...

posted by saul_relative on July 24, 2007 at 11:00 PM | link to this | reply

My pleasure, poets dreams.

posted by saul_relative on July 24, 2007 at 10:53 PM | link to this | reply

Glad you are standing tall, truthful & democratic- unlike Kingeorgeieporgie

 

posted by ILLUMINATI8 on July 24, 2007 at 12:56 PM | link to this | reply

Hi

I never really thought off it, thanks for that

posted by The_Poets_Dreams on July 24, 2007 at 11:02 AM | link to this | reply

PTSD, usually, Glennb. But I don't look at it as "defending" America in

Afghanistan and Iraq.  Afghanistan was retaliation.  Iraq was imperialism at best (or worst).  I really don't get the racial slant of your first sentence, Glennb.  Perhaps I missed something.  Enlighten me...

posted by saul_relative on July 24, 2007 at 12:14 AM | link to this | reply

Saul Relative,

posted by Glennb on July 23, 2007 at 10:08 PM | link to this | reply

Right you are, RaeS. It's disgusting...

posted by saul_relative on July 23, 2007 at 1:36 PM | link to this | reply

Haven't you heard, proc? We don't have any, just some old anachronisms

that have limited destructive capabilities... (sigh....)

posted by saul_relative on July 23, 2007 at 1:36 PM | link to this | reply

Companies like Halliburton, Boeing, Lockheed-Martin are enriched daily

by our presence in Iraq. I believe in the law enforcement process: follow the money. And that's barely a rustle in the list of businesses doing business quite profitably in these war times. Thought inducing post, Saul. Thank you.

posted by Katray2 on July 23, 2007 at 1:32 PM | link to this | reply

Boys,boys boys,play nicely now before we take your computers of

mass destruction away from you.....

posted by proc on July 23, 2007 at 1:28 PM | link to this | reply

Now, now, Corbin. Play nice. Glennb is just concerned that we don't

know what we're talking about and somehow missed the ideas of speculation and conjecture...

posted by saul_relative on July 23, 2007 at 8:44 AM | link to this | reply

Afghanistan isn't much of a problem, WavyDavy, but the sure-fire way to

make it one is to leave Iraq completely and leave a presence in Afghanistan.  I keep hearing comparisons to Japan after WWII.  Afghanistan isn't Japan.  The Afghans have never been truly occupied in their history.  Our continued presence there, just like our continued presence in Iraq, is getting to feel like an oppression.  That excruciating weight of the Taliban is becoming a terrible memory, but the American presence is a reminder of occupation, foreigners, invaders, and an oppressive loss of autonomy, no matter how much milder it is than that of the Taliban.

posted by saul_relative on July 23, 2007 at 8:42 AM | link to this | reply

Hey, Glennb, I am sure you're a kind-hearted soul who just can't seem to

reconcile this tortured world with your idealized one, but I live in the now of it and attempt to understand the workings at present.  History may look back on the apparent criminality and corruption of the Bush administration with disdain and disgust (as I and you and many others do now), but there is also the aspect of moving forward into that future -- and Bush and the Bobbleheads aren't going to let anything go that they've started.  They're a bunch of crazed ideologues with god and might on thier side and by god and glory of the Marine Corps and the Armored Cav, they're going to seed democracy and capitalism, American style, in the Middle East.  And they're not going to be tried for war crimes, so we can just forget about that.  Better to think about Bush doing one good thing as president -- stepping in with the United Nations in Darfur and ending that genocidal crush of death.  Hypocritical of him, but better than his current stance in Iraq and Afghanistan. 

posted by saul_relative on July 23, 2007 at 8:37 AM | link to this | reply

Re: Corbin_Dallas,

Well, Glenn since you're an expert on both.....I am sure you fully understood it!

posted by Corbin_Dallas on July 23, 2007 at 5:29 AM | link to this | reply

The War In Iraq Is Going To ''Take Awhile'' And The End Is ''Indiscernible'

We should focus on Afghanistan and get out of Iraq.  If they can't get along with each other, it isn't our problem.

posted by WavyDavy on July 22, 2007 at 10:54 AM | link to this | reply

Saul Relative,

Do you even understand your own writings? What does "focusing" mean in your world?

posted by Glennb on July 22, 2007 at 6:23 AM | link to this | reply

Saul Relative,

In your world the "rule of law" does not apply? So you can casually make statements about a war criminal having immunity because of political and family connections. It will take effort but I cannot see this period in human history being forgotten as just some neo-con free-for-all against the Brown Race!

posted by Glennb on July 22, 2007 at 6:22 AM | link to this | reply

Jesus, Glennb, sometimes I wonder what the hell you're reading. I did

not write or imply that "they hate us", nor do I entertain that philosophy, although I have no problem understanding if "they hated us."  Oh, and everything is about choice.  Whether you do or you don't, whether you give or you take, whether you surrender or rise up -- it's all about choice.

posted by saul_relative on July 21, 2007 at 10:06 PM | link to this | reply

Amazing how short-sighted some people are, Azur.

posted by saul_relative on July 21, 2007 at 10:01 PM | link to this | reply

Saul Relative,

You still write as if America or whomever these unnamed people in the shadows have some say in the outcome. These people only commit the crime to create ways to blame the victims. Stop with the "they hate us routine"! The only "real" hate is grown right here in the "good ole" US of A. 

posted by Glennb on July 21, 2007 at 9:21 PM | link to this | reply

Don't know why it took "awhile" for them to see this

posted by Azur on July 21, 2007 at 3:40 PM | link to this | reply

Wrong again, Glennb. I have never said we could win the war in Iraq, do

not beleive that we'll ever win the war in Iraq, and will never believe that America will ever destroy, subvert, and totally oppress another indigenous people anywhere else in the world short of genocide.  I have always maintained that Iraq is a lost cause.  I also understand that people like Bush and Cheney aren't going to change policy due to the massive amounts of money companies they and their buddies own are making off of it, not to mention those oil interests that, for whatever reason, do not seem to be being harnessed to help economically rebuild Iraq.  I do not beleive Afghanistan will sit too long for an American occupation (we're seeing signs of imminent upheaval now).  So, working with the assinine ideology of the hegemonous and imperialistic right-wingers that control our executive branch (and hold hostage our Constitution), I see the United States further wrecking its image throughout the world, especially in Muslim countries, where the next generation of holy warriors are being nurtured as we type, fully aware of the greed, the oppression, and the arrogance of America.  No, I hold no hope for America's fortunes in the Middle East.  Better that we rely on diplomacy and the traditional and historical internecine struggles of the Middle East to divert them from focusing too long on the U.S.  Terrorist groups will do that anyway.  That is a given.  And we'll have to deal with it the same way we've been dealing with it for untold years.  Here is the sad future.  Guerilla wars, civil wars, and terrorist attacks.  Wars of attrition.  Wars of patience.  Until the big guy gets bored, takes his toys, and goes home... 

posted by saul_relative on July 21, 2007 at 3:35 PM | link to this | reply

Saul Relative,

But then you criticize the opinion without addressing the merit of the argument. I try and stress to you that the defeat of America in Iraq is more certain than not. Whether today or in a thousand years. My point is, why not deal with that reality today? It is no crime for an Iraqi or any other person to die for his piece of the Planet (ever wonder why the Bush and Cheney boys are not freely volunteering for service?). Americans are dying for the sake of not having sane leadership. As a "student of history" you obviously study only the history that meets your approval!

posted by Glennb on July 21, 2007 at 12:28 PM | link to this | reply

For the most part, you're right, TAPS. However, you never know who is

paying attention, so it does not hurt to give voice to differing, diverse, and converse opinions on a subject.  You may become the spark that ignites a firestorm of change...

posted by saul_relative on July 21, 2007 at 11:03 AM | link to this | reply

That's your opinion, Glennb. I don't think Bush or Cheney or Rumsfeld or

anyone has the right to attempt to orchestrate policy procedures in another sovereign country.  However, Bush and his henchmen have been doing just that since they invaded Afghanistan and Iraq, so there you have it.  Corbin asked what I would do; being a student of history and political science, I speculated as to what would work.  And beleive me, nothing will work as long as we're there.  Nor does our paranoid and imperialistic government give itself many options no matter what they do.  It's far too late to mind our own business.  We've made the Middle East our business.  They (those organizations and governments with the means to do so) have made the United States their business.  It is what it is.  Sometimes, Glennb, I beleive you argue for the sake of argument. 

posted by saul_relative on July 21, 2007 at 11:01 AM | link to this | reply

Saul Relative,

You gave an ignorant and uninformed answer. What gives America any right to decide the fate of a sovereign Iraqi nation when there are no Iraqis in the room? This procedure Bush is getting tomorrow may uncover where his "brain matter" is!

posted by Glennb on July 20, 2007 at 9:57 PM | link to this | reply

Corbin_Dallas,

You asked an ignorant and ill directed question. 

posted by Glennb on July 20, 2007 at 9:54 PM | link to this | reply

Saul_relative

Like GlennB, I feel that there is not much I can do about it except watch from afar.  That is a pretty helpless feeling. 

posted by TAPS. on July 20, 2007 at 9:53 PM | link to this | reply

Saul Relative,

You people keep writing and pontificating as if Mr. Bush has a choice! Who was the last person to commit a crime and then make it go away? Happens all the time? His problem is the rest of his life. I do get neither the stupidity nor the insanity. So I will continue to watch from afar and so will you! 

posted by Glennb on July 20, 2007 at 9:50 PM | link to this | reply

It's going to get worse the longer we stay there, Corbin. We're dealing

with several things going on at once.  The al Qaeda angle is a smokescreen.  Most of the terrorist acts in Iraq aren't al Qaeda linked.  They're insurgents of one faction or another.  Then there's the religious angle that will never go away.  We are on sacred Muslim ground and cannot remain there, except as guests, which we are not.  We have become a focal point for extreme and radical Muslim thinking.  And we're infidels.  This also points toward a need to leave.  There are also those who welcomed us, but now want us to leave.  The only damn people in Iraq who do not want us to leave are the people making billions off of us and those in power supported by us. 

Militarily, we screwed ourselves early on, not understanding the people, the culture, and the nature of the enemy we were facing.  This was not anywhere near the complete fault of our military; most of the blame must reside with Rumsfeld and company, including the president.  Add to that those bumbling religious and ideological morons who worked in Bremer's CPA for almost two years and did nothing.  Currently, Petraeus is doing a pretty good job, but it's a too little, too late.  If the military (and their civilian bosses in Washington and Baghdad) had worked the counterinsurgency angle three years ago and actually reconstructed Iraq's destroyed infrastructure, things wouldn't be nowhere near as bad for the United States as it is today. 

We need to redeploy.  Get back to fighting the actual world war on terrorism, not policing a fractionated and factioned-off civil upheaval in Iraq.  Let them stand or fall on their own.  Remember that they're not a budding America, never will be.   Keep some of the troops we have in the region in Afghanistan (it is within striking distance if that becomes necessary). Bring all our other troops home or reassign them elsewhere.  Continue to support Iraq economically.  Keep a close eye on Iran, Syria, and Saudi Arabia.  Open up diplomatic channels with them all.  We're going to be fighting this terrorism war for the next few centuries; we really need to stop wasting time and resources (and lives) in a dead-end situation like Iraq.     

posted by saul_relative on July 20, 2007 at 9:47 PM | link to this | reply

Just curious.......

two things....based on your current outlook of things.......what is your predicted outcome......and how would you handle it any better than it is being handled now?

posted by Corbin_Dallas on July 20, 2007 at 6:14 AM | link to this | reply